The Ying Yang of Katrina
 

Have a seat folks. :)
:box:


We have gotten to see the Ying of this horrific event in the structure of the United States governmental bureaucracy. This is NOT a new or unique condition that is indicative of any country, political party, administration or to democracy itself. Patronage is just part of rewarding the political faithful and has long been a big chunk of any political system. While I have some major issues with current Federal actions, this is a state of affairs that is imbedded at all levels of State and local government as well. The reality is that it will always be part-and-parcel of government, by nature and function.

The topic here is not that people will be given rewards and jobs as a function of the system, (well, it IS an issue with me, but not the top one of the moment :mad: ) but that they are put in positions of authority without any degree of ability or know-how. When private business has the brother-in-law that needs a job, he is put in charge of light bulb repair kit inventory, NOT production control. All levels and departments of our government are filled with completely incompetent and ignorant people, but my exception is that they are at the top. The dedicated and knowledgeable people that have chosen to serve our society should not have to devote most of their effort at working around them. Responsibility, authority and accountability MUST always be the three balanced components of any job.

Do we have the chance to demand the Yang of review and adjusting of our executive government positions to be staffed with someone that has a minimal amount of competence, experience and management ability? Finger pointing and ass-covering is well underway now that functional people are doing their part to help those in distress. I’m looking for a way to keep the pressure actually focused on improving the necessary evils of ALL the bureaucracies and minimize the antics of the political circus that I believe is going to take center ring. The shroud of complacency and faith was blown away by Katrina and I think we have an opportunity to truly makes the major improvements that only come in the face of such a calamity.

Do you think there is room for meaningful change to any aspect of your government, regardless of where you are? Who and how are you going to contact, not with your complaints and condemnation, but with your desire and demand for improvement? What are you going to DO to make something happen?




I need that oxygen now Lixy. :wobble:

:faint:

Whoa..... my friend. What a major can of worms you do speak of. I've been involved on the local level of emergency management here in my small town/county and it's gotten to political blows about everything. The day we have common sense seep into the position appointing I'll be shocked as hell! My baby brother has been a firefighter and EMT for years now and he's one of the most devoted people I've ever seen about his choice of career. He had a fire chief try to hang him with a bunch of wrongdoing. Fortunately, chief discovered, not all small town boys are dummies. Baby brother had everything documented and promptly dumped the turd back in chief's plate. Having to go through a suspension and court proceedings pulled some of the wind from his sails though. I haven't heard from him lately but I'm betting he's somewhere in the hurricane zone working his ass off now. After 9-11 he went to NY on his on.. his crew decided not to send anybody so Bro' said "Fuck Y'all then... I'm on vacation!" LOL He went with another crew on his own time. I know there are highly trained competent people involved, we just have to figure out how to get the pol;iticians to see that and let THEM run the show.

OK, pass the oxygen... or Lixy...that works too :rofl:

I do agree, except the problem with total ineptitude is even greater at the local and state level. What I've heard and seen infuriates me.

Seeing two hundred buses that could have evacuated people ... almost 20,000 ... but didn't. A shelter estabished, but without any provisions. Delayed for almost a week in even beginning serious preparations for the hurricane.

Then, learning the state government rejected an initial federal offer to position people closer because they were afraid it would reflect poorly on them ... seems incomprehensible to me. I think the governor and mayor should also resign as being unfit to hold a position of responsibility.

If these things are true (and I've seen the pictures of the school buses .. now flooded and needing replacing) ... I think dorkedness is more widespread than just the federal level.

No one (read politicans) seemed to have the guts to do what was required ... most of all those closest to the disaster. :mad:

By the way, the people lending a hand are SUPER! They deserve the credit in spite of their leadership. :)

Interesting that you used a "brother-in-law" as the example. Rarely do we hear that someone has pushed their mother, sister, aunt, daughter, sister in law, grandma, into position of authority for which they are not qualified. Truly a "good Ol' BOYS" network.

Let's see, my state HoR has 119 reps. Maybe I should take that^^^^^ complaint to them....oh there is only 27 women in the state HoR. I guess I'll get no where there.

Sorry this was about a different sort of ying yang :spin:

PF my responce to all this is a goverment for the people by the people, most of the country is uneducated ( at least in my area)in any manner let alone politics, the only way to change that is to change everyone. And to put on my little rant is if people don't take care of themselves and expect someone else to do it they will get their lesson while those of us who see the brighter side will be moving on. That's the reason why the boys club works so well if these people can't blame themselves they have good ole' Billy Bob Jethro and his 20,000 family members that will be there as a figurehead.

*slumps away* sheesh thinking gives me a headache lol

PantyFanatic,

You’re quite right about ineptitude not being limited. Back in the ‘80s, there was an enjoyable sitcom which ran on the BBC titled Yes Minister

How about this quote:

"…needed to know was not known at the time that the now known need to know was known, and therefore those of us who needed to advise and inform felt that the information that we needed as to whether or not to inform the highest authority of the known information was not yet known, and therefore there was no authority for the authority to be informed because the need to know was not yet known, or needed."

Sounds eerily familiar…

Political change in democracies is traditionally brought about via elections. The limitations exposed by Katrina in the various governmental agencies are perfectly good reasons to vote for change – provided that one or more candidates offer such change.

The only real problem is that one idiot is just as bad as the next idiot.


Sorry I mean politician, did not mean to demean the town idiot. ;)

dream on PF in a couple of months it will be back to the norm. An old man like you should know by now that it not how hard you work or what you know it's who you blow that gets the job.

If that were the case^^^^^ we'd have a woman in the white house................ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo o or is that the case ????????? :o

Well, we DO have a Bush in the White House.

Your brother is the only type of person that actually does the job. We and the people of the Gulf coast will always be dependent and grateful for the many like him. The people in charge of ANY function that a public agency is charged with performing, MUST be filled with knowledgeable people. The line between ‘politician’ and capable management needs to be moved up.

(I’m going to need some of that Lixy to go on myself. :slurp: )


What we have had *SLAP* us in the face is something I have long felt is inherent at EVERY level from the White House, to the town hall of Mayberry RFD. I wish I felt it were only prevalent in emergency response sectors of the system. The deeper it is in the complex structure of present society, the less likely it is that light will ever be shown on it. I guess it’s the natural outgrowth from decades of complacency. Our general prosperity inched along with jerks and drips and we were too preoccupied to notice the rotting of the foundation as we built.

Yes it is. But as things evolve and all genders fill the seats of power, I’m sure any woman can be as incompetent as any man. I don’t have a complaint about the total fuckup, (MANY are temporarily taking care of that), but about the system we created that ALLOWED it to happen. It’s about keeping some capable people at the front of the pack in every bureaucracy and stopping the patronage from being the FIRST form of organization.


You are right about most of us being unaware of what goes on beneath the surface of those elected to take care of us AND about our responsibility for ourselves. Blind faith in Big Brother being there and doing it for us has jumped on stage with both boots. We are the ones responsible for ourselves and responsible for putting something in place to help when it’s needed. We are ALSO responsible for when that ‘help’ is not able to work because it has become a self serving entity of it’s own. I suppose that is the Yang I’m trying to see in the disaster that has unfolded.


We know that politics and being a politician is a sewer and profession of very snaky people. The division between them and the dedicated, capable people that do the deeds is the concern I have. Manipulation and spin are the things that we are going to be smothered with for months to come………. while the people with competence fumble through with what they been given in equipment and leadership

For once I have to agree with the wisdom of the Wama-Lama. That IS what get the job, but it’s the person with ‘know’, who works at it, that gets the job DONE! It will be back to normal if we wait for them to pick up the rug and let us see what is being swept under. I was just having a fantasy that people might set their causes aside and not let all the sad facts of this event be swept away in a few months for ‘business as usual’ in the system.


I am as old as Boog says and like to dream of a woman in EVERY house, and that they may even be above the greed and self serving shortsightedness most of the politicians have shown, but as equality grows, ………………. equality grows!

I think you're right, PF. Worst part about it is that I don't see where the relief will come from. There's the unusual one or two that seem to have some level of common sense and ... dare I say it ... decency. But, by no means, do they rule the roost ... and usually they get shunned by even their own parties. And, our media doesn't help much. Seems like truth and itegrity have deserted them, too. I remember a time when they tried to tell you the way it was ... and not the way their editors wanted it to be. :(

Hmmmm ... does that mean if we don't know where we're going, we stand a pretty good chance of getting there? :confused:

LOL :rofl: I think it does. And I’m sure that is EXACTLY what they are working with and counting on and have been for a long time. We KNOW that is that is their profession and they are better than we will EVER be at it. It’s too bad that it has taken something like Katrina to blow the façade away from ALL the levels. It’s not about ‘parties’ or any group anywhere. It’s that we see what we have bought and what they have delivered. If WE let them go back to ‘Business As Usual’, it’s OUR fault we get BAU.

since we're on a hijacking binge anyway, I'd like to report a minor step foward (or backward, depending on one's outlook) for gender equity...FBI has run a sting called "Operation: TN Waltz" that caught several state lawmakers taking outright bribes...& there was at least one female legislator snared in the trap...

Bravo! I hadn't heard that, but :thumb:!

(The bravo is for the sting operation in general!!)

Just felt it was timely to bring it up in the since that TN has been very much the home of the "good ole boys" network from the early days...

PantyFanatic,

What do you propose as an alternative?

The sad aspect of this is graft and corruption are so much a part of political structures, we don’t bat an eye when the few blatant and total bunglers are caught, but give a chastising nod without any sense of shock or surprise ……… because there is no sense of shock or surprise. :( It’s par for the course.

The problem with outrage at corruption is that it is itself a political tool. My :rant: is not regarding the character of the politician as if it were unknown. It’s concerned with the squandered use of the power we’ve vested them with, that now is plainly not being used to even bring people capable of responsible action to position. We now have more like themselves in those critical posts. Katrina blew the roof off of the chicken coop and we are seeing the chickens come home to roost.

:box:

Let me begin by saying that I am a Hurricane Andrew survivor. I know what it is like to have your world turned upside down in a major way.

Katrina has taught me to look HARD for things to be thankful for. Yeah, we were thankful to be alive and for our house to still be standing...even if a good part of the roof was trashed. But we also had dry land under our feet. I cannot imagine how much worse things could have gotten had we the flooding that the folks in Gulf got.

It took FEMA and the other state/local agencies time to get assistance to those in need after Andrew hit. They were maybe a day faster than they were in New Orleans...no water to deal with may be reason they were faster...but they also had a smaller geographical area to deal with.

I'm NOT a FEMA apologist. People died in the aftermath of Katrina, people that would have been saved if there had been help sooner.

BUT THE TIME TO HAVE SAVED THEM WAS BEFORE THE STORM HIT. Once all hell breaks loose, it is just too damned hard to get to everyone who needs help all at once.

In the case of Katrina, just take out a detailed map and look hard at it. You'll get the shivers just trying to comprehend how to help that many towns and ALL OF THE PEOPLE IN THEM in a reasonable period of time.

A nuclear bomb wouldn't have impacted that much land.

IMO, a more comprehensive EVACUATION PLAN is what's needed...especially for those without the means to flee. Also, a BETTER flood prevention system...local officials are to blame for that colossal failure, not FEMA.

As for those taking shots at the President for the slow relief, some of it is fair, some not. Unless there's more to the story, Mike Brown is seriously underqualified. But the President is not a racist, as idiots like Kanye West and Al Sharpton have claimed. Outrageous comments like that are simply the stuff of radicalism and are not helpful.

Americans (and maybe the world) need to come to grips with the fact that this is one of the great human disasters in history. Was anyone truly prepared for it? No. Could anyone be truly prepared for it? I don't know.

After what Andrew taught me, I just don't know....


rabbit

Peeps...PEEPS! Love is like oxygen. Ya get too much, ya get too high. Not enough and you're gonna die!

/me passes out the love in small doses and makes everyone consume it and then go get back in line! :rofl:

Damn PF! So YOU got my soapbox, eh?

Let me start by quoting a most famous cliche'..."Hindsight is 20/20"...and everyone on this planet should make a conscious effort to have the necessary hindsight BEFORE the disaster (pick one...any one) happens! :hair:

ANYONE can be an armchair referee or a Monday morning coach! What "we" have to realize is that we HAVE to learn from our mistakes/tradgedies or we are doomed to repeat them!

Blah! Enough with the cliches'...I'm sure you get my drift.

*sucks up some oxygen...ie: :x: PF* (<---you all know he's gonna have a field day with that statement)

I think this thread is mostly about trust and indifference. If I'm wrong...I'll eat my bra!

We have/had information as to what a cat4 hurricane could do to La. Did we trust the scientists who made a mock-up, via computer enhancement, of the destruction such a force would yield? NO! Why? Indifference of what "could be" as opposed to what we aready trusted "always was" in the past. Do we ever truely believe something bad is going to happen? NO! We trust that we have capable minds and hands at the ready for any given situation that arises.

That leads me to PF's reference of jobs going to the one who isn't necessarily qualified. We have to start at the highest level and understand the trickle-down effect. If you vote for Mr./Mrs./Ms. X (yes...I didn't mention him by name on purpose)...you vote for all the idiots (<--personal opinion) he/she knows and owes...and it's YOUR fault that they have the job cause you didn't do your homework and find out who his/her associates are and who might "get in" when he/she was elected! I feel NO GUILT for the current administration because I didn't cast my vote for any of um! I must admit...I have had guilt (in hindsight) in the past fore voting for some of the peeps who eventually trickled down a collage of idiots...but that's another era! Anyway...therein lies the indifference I spoke of earlier. Ya like a candidate but you're indifferent to who he/she might drag into his/her administration! You can't bitch if you didn't do your homework!

So what are we left with? Well...as usual, we pick up the pieces and we go on about our merry way of trust and indifference. Or, we earnestly learn from our current mistakes and vow to take charge and change the future!

I can't say as I know who will actually do that and I can't say as I know how to tell them to do it...EXCEPT to say...

Do your homework BEFORE the election...NOT AFTER THE DISASTER!

WHEW!

*jumps down off the box and passes it to the next in line*

Bill Clinton could have been President and the end result wouldn't have been much different. Blaming George Bush is too easy an answer, especially for those who are against him.

The complete truth is that a LOT of people in leadership roles, at ALL levels of gov't (regardless of party) didn't listen to the scientists and didn't proactively plan or act (or FUND).

A lot of people would still be dead today because trying to help that many of them spread out over such a large area after the fact is a logistical nightmare that no one was ready for.

Perhaps the people of North California should start thinking about what to do when the "big one" hits them, as scientists continue to predict. Now's the time to plan, not after everything has been shaken apart.

My understanding is that FEMA was usurped into Homeland Security and that it was made perfectly clear that a minimum of 75% of the funds allocated to Homeland Security were to be spent on actively fighting terrorism. And that this left little for the other types of risks our country faces. I have heard that FEMA as an agency had been stripped essentially to bare bones.

Not sure where the blame falls or frankly if I even give a shit. I just know that no one can help us recover from this better than us. The American people.

So true, and but the basic problem is that the whole system is shot in the first place. It's not that the system broke down; it's that the system was basically designed to fail. Remember, the basic function of government is to keep the rich and/or powerful in their positions of wealth & power. Fuck the common people.



Yes, but if you want to keep this analogy, then any idea that the whole rotten coop is anything but rotten is counting your chickens before they hatch.

gekkogecko,

Not everyone would agree with you.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,


When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal…

…That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed…

I recently received a pdf handbook on what to do in case of earthquake....I think people here are preparing for that eventuality

osuche,

Interesting. Is that effort a local, state, or federal initiative?

But if Bill was President it would have still happened but it would be just the other party point the finger at him. Most likely they would have got ken star on him trying to prove the not only the lack of help was his fault they would want to blame Katrina on him too.
In reality that what our poltical system has become insted of pointing out your or your party good point point out the other perties bad. One has to wonder if this is because neither of the parties have any good point to point out.

That's all verynice, Jseal, but I was speaking from a "this is the reality" point of view, not from a "Here's the propaganda we'll espouse to the masses" point of view.

To whit, once the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America had fulfilled it purpose in justifying the rebellion against "duly constituted" authority, the document itself was basically run over with a steamroller, first when the US was incorporated under the Articles of Confederation (ever read that one? That's not something that *any* history course I've ever seen or experienced paid much attention to), and then later under the Constitution.

gekkogecko,

You may, of course, be correct, time will tell, but as the number of representative democracies has grown since that document first saw light, and continues to grow to the present, including the first ever contested Egyptian presidential election held this last Wednesday, I’d guess that reality has been more than a little unkind to those who have held different opinions.

Over the last 229 years, the ideals found in this document of human liberation have weathered many internal crises, and have withstood the intellectual competition of Monarchy, Fascism, Communism, and also runs like Theocracy.

Yes, I have read the Articles of Confederation, which became the ruling document of the nation after they were ratified by the last of the 13 American states, Maryland, in 1781, and am also aware why they were superseded by the current Constitution of the United States.

For what it is worth, the principle problem with the Articles was that Congress was too severely limited in its powers. It could not raise money by collecting taxes; it had no control over foreign commerce; it could pass laws but could not force the states to comply with them. The central government thus constituted was dependent on the willingness of the various states to carry out its measures, and often the states refused to cooperate. Another crippling difficulty was that the articles were virtually impossible to amend, so problems could not be corrected.

In the words of George Washington, the government created by the Articles of the Confederation was "little more than the shadow without the substance".

Note also that the preamble of the U.S. Constitution reads “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

In both the Declaration and the Constitution People come before the State.

People like you Rabbit, are the ones that have the insight and knowledge in dealing with such an event. My concern is that the games of politics, as you have pointed out, are the PROBLEM! The absolute need to have people of competence in positions of responsibility is the utmost issue. NOT the game playing they keep pulling us into. The only thing I can repeat is …..

Things sure are tranquil right now, eh? The welfare of many citizens was promoted?

It reminds me of the signs on the schoolyard closest to my apartment. They read "No Dogs Allowed" but it's the most popular place for people to take their dogs.

I've got to stress gekko's point about the reality of the situation. As much as people would like to call on quotes from Washington and from the Constitution, the affected citizens needed a leaner bureaucracy, easy on the fat/cronyism. I doubt many in the Houston Astrodome are seeking solace in the Constitution right now.

As long as they were not black or women....


The Constitution was not even written with their interest in mind, was it? Why would anyone ever seek solace in a document that was never meant to protect them or their rights?

You are right that this is about blind faith and indifference Lixy. :) …and for being right………… I get to eat your panties :D

You are spot on that when we put somebody in office you know they are going to fill the ranks with THEIR people. The whole topic here is that they have to start filling the positions of responsibility with people that are qualified and not more politicians. There are knowledgeable people of every persuasion and philosophy. It is a case of defining the line of bureaucracy capable people. These can not be more politicians at the head of something that has to perform.

Anybody that remembers the TV series WKRP recalls “handle it, handle it”. We have to MAKE the Mr. Carlson’s put the Andy Travis’s in place.



I think I need some more of that special oxygen again Lixy. :faint:
:lust:

That’s the FIRST place we must start with. The heads of ALL the MANY duties of government must be able managers and focused on the mission of the post and not the political objectives of the spin players. Katrina has given us the Ying and Yang model that we BETTER take to heart for everything from garbage collection to defending the country from hostility on the very basic level. We are not talking about even attempting top make improvements for our people or bettering the specie. We are demanding the foundations that allows the people to survive and peruse an existence that lets us work for a better life for ourselves and our descendants.

You are right that this is not about blame. The obvious will be in front of us and they will continue to play their games like cheap magicians with their slight of hand. That IS their one and only expertise. It WILL be the people that overcomes this disaster and it will only be the people that force a change by SHOUTING that we see what the other hand is doing.

I don’t believe it was designed to fail, but it IS the function of the rich & powerful to stay rich & powerful and using the government is the best way to ensure that happens. …… and that is FARRRRRRRRRRR from new. I’m not counting chickens before they’re hatched, but I do recognize the fox in the henhouse.

There is no question that many conscientious civil servants are working for us, but it is the their management that CANNOT be allowed to be filled with ignorant ‘Old Boys’ ….. or ‘Old Girls’. I know you are well aware that good management of anything consists of careful planning, implementation, monitoring and review.

It’s the game of politics that that has become the end goal instead of the means to serving the people.