Where'd it go?!

[Lord Snow]

Murfreesboro Tennessee is out of gas. Don't see why we can't bring any in. Only a few oil rigs went down because of the hurricane (I'm sorry for anyone that lives in Texas). Not like Texas is the only state that produces oil. Can anyone explain it?

[gekkogecko]

But the Houston area has the largest single concentration of oil refineries in the US.

So, when Ike came along, the oil speculators went nutso. Fucked it up for the rest of us.

[Coastie]

It's not the rigs that is the problem..

it's the refineries.. where they turn the oil to gas.. which a LARGE part of them are in Texas.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/rankings/refineries.htm

[jseal]

Murfreesboro Tennessee is out of gas. Don't see why we can't bring any in. Only a few oil rigs went down because of the hurricane (I'm sorry for anyone that lives in Texas). Not like Texas is the only state that produces oil. Can anyone explain it?
Lord Snow,

Good Question - and a real problem!

[IowaMan]

It's all so damn ridiculous though. I was speaking with Shadozfire last night and she was saying that one of the stations in the area she evacuated to had a tanker come in yesterday and the gas price had gone up about $1.30 from the time the tanker got to the station to the time all of the fuel had been sold a few hours later. I guess the fuel that didn't sell right away must've been worth more because it had aged a couple of hours. :confused:

[Coastie]

It happens both ways though.. the price can go down regardless of when a truck comes in. They adjust the selling price based on the price they expect to have to pay to replace it (sorta.. complex formula :D).

The prices going up with the pump had a lot of do with the media and people having a the skys falling attitude.. if everyone across the country didn't rush to go get gas immediately prior to Ike would the price have gone up as much? I think it was more of a perceived shortage than anything based on fact. With the refineries tempoarily shut down yeah some areas may have ended up with shortages.. but not everywhere.

[jseal]

Costie,

You are probably correct. Had there been a real gasoline shortage, it would have made national news. Unless, of course, the syndicated news networks were part of the presumed conspiracy, etc. Until people think before jumping to conclusions, unfortunate situations like this will be repeated.

[Lord Snow]

Even if Texas has the largest concentration of oil refineries, that still doesn't answer the question of why can't get some from other states have a few? We're supposed to be a country. United we stand, divided we fall. I'm sure there are a few search and rescue teams and supplies down in Texas that came from Tennessee as well as other states. Why can't other states give us a hand and send some fuel? Then again, that decision is left up to the politicians. Besides, most of the fuel we buy from gas stations doesn't even come from our refineries. It comes from over seas. Where we happen to be at war.

[Lilith]

The other thing is that they knew for some time this storm was coming. I am sure they rushed to send as much product out as possible from those refineries in the days prior to the storm. I think this is all BS.

[Coastie]

Even if Texas has the largest concentration of oil refineries, that still doesn't answer the question of why can't get some from other states have a few? We're supposed to be a country. United we stand, divided we fall. I'm sure there are a few search and rescue teams and supplies down in Texas that came from Tennessee as well as other states. Why can't other states give us a hand and send some fuel? Then again, that decision is left up to the politicians. Besides, most of the fuel we buy from gas stations doesn't even come from our refineries. It comes from over seas. Where we happen to be at war.

Oil/Fuel is a commodity, as far as the transfer and shipping the government has about zero to do with it. If the company your gas station normally gets gas from gets its gas from a company that gets theirs from a texas refinery they may not be able to on short notice get fuel from somewhere else, plus there is just limited infrastructure and delivery vehicles. As far as this aspect, it's not really a political thing at all, it's a corporate/capitalist thing.

Furthermore..

In 2005, United States refineries produced over 90 percent of the gasoline used in the United States. Less than 40 percent of the crude oil used by U.S. refineries was produced in the United States. About 45 percent of gasoline produced in the United States comes from refineries in the U.S. Gulf Coast (including Texas and Louisiana).

Source: http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/experts/contactexperts.htm

It's a common misconception, we import alot of oil but almost all of the gasoline is refined here. And then half of the capability is in the Texas/Louisiana area so gasoline prices are very much effected by hurricanes that hit that area (supply and demand economy). To complicate things even more our refineries are OLD, and there is little to no spare capacity in the refineries. :D

[Oldfart]

The oil companies would have several weeks supplies stashed to cover breakdowns, storms etc. It sounds like a distribution problem to me.

[jseal]

For those who are willing to accept the US DOE’s numbers, in June of this year, there were approximately 107 million barrels (http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_stoc_wstk_dcu_nus_m.htm) of gasoline stock. Also in June daily consumption was approximately 9 million barrels (http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_cons_psup_dc_nus_mbblpd_m.htm). This works out to less than 1 day’s consumption stockpiled.

With a margin as thin as that, a little bit of panic buying goes a long way.

[Scarecrow]

The Galviston/Houston area produces just 20% of US gas. It was the station owners and consumers who paniced over the news of a shortage.

[Oldfart]

jseal,

107 KK barrels in store

9KK barrels per day consumption.

Almost 12 days of stockpile by my maths.

[jseal]

107 mb June gasoline stock

(9 mb/day * 30 days in June) = 270 mb June consumption

107 / 270 < 1

[Lilith]

You said a day's consumption and are doing the math for a month. Are you a Republican? I smell "fuzzy math."

[Oldfart]

Some days feel like a month. LOL

[Lilith]

Amen brother Oldfart. Yesterday being one of those days.

[jseal]

… I smell "fuzzy math."
You also?
The oil companies would have several weeks supplies stashed to cover breakdowns, storms etc. It sounds like a distribution problem to me.
… Almost 12 days of stockpile by my maths.
Or are some numbers more equal than others?

[jseal]

Republican? Fuzzy Math?

Bah!

As a card carrying, lifetime member of the Democratic Party I can lay claim to much better that fuzzy math! I need only point out the Clinton Administration’s efforts to use statistics to “adjust” the numbers of the 2000 Census for apportionment purposes.

We prefer to make the numbers up.

It required a 1999 Supreme Court decision to put that one to bed.

Of course, so would the Republicans, or any other party, if they thought it would advance their cause – and that they could get away with it. No, slinging empty labels about will not, I believe, solve the problems of the world, or fill empty gas pumps.

Still, it takes all kinds to make the world go round.

[Irish]

It happens both ways though.. the price can go down regardless of when a truck comes in. They adjust the selling price based on the price they expect to have to pay to replace it (sorta.. complex formula :D).

The prices going up with the pump had a lot of do with the media and people having a the skys falling attitude.. if everyone across the country didn't rush to go get gas immediately prior to Ike would the price have gone up as much? I think it was more of a perceived shortage than anything based on fact. With the refineries tempoarily shut down yeah some areas may have ended up with shortages.. but not everywhere.
I live next door to an oil delivery company named "Just Oil".My nei ghbor runs
the business.He told me that the price is based on his replacement price!
They have a billboard,in front,with the daily price.You wouldn't believe how
much it fluctuates,day to day!Every day they refill thier trucks at the Portsmouth NH oil terminal.The price is detirmned(sp?) there.When I ran my motorcycle repair shops,the parts prices were detirmined by my suppliers
price.They were fairly stable. Irish :2cents:

[Pita]

Oil/Fuel is a commodity, as far as the transfer and shipping the government has about zero to do with it. If the company your gas station normally gets gas from gets its gas from a company that gets theirs from a texas refinery they may not be able to on short notice get fuel from somewhere else, plus there is just limited infrastructure and delivery vehicles. As far as this aspect, it's not really a political thing at all, it's a corporate/capitalist thing.

I do believe that it's a corporate issue that we have no gas and haven't had any sense Friday night. Well, yesterday we finally got one small load of premium but that won't last long unless more trucks are on their way. I work for a very large convenience/gas station that brags to having the lowest prices. This means we buy our gas as cheap as we can get it. The fact that corporate knew this was going to happen to the stores in my area tells us that someone dropped the ball in long term planning for the supply of gasoline. I sure won't be surprised to hear that a few heads were left to roll once the dust of this mess settles.

[scotzoidman]

Surely no one is suggesting that the oil companies are engaging in some good old-fashioned price gouging? Perish the thought... :bs:

[Booger]

You said a day's consumption and are doing the math for a month. Are you a Republican? I smell "fuzzy math."




No Lilith that is what is call Jseal Logic. I think you know how that works anything Jseal says is always right no matter what the facts and numbers say.

[Booger]

For those who are willing to accept the US DOE’s numbers, in June of this year, there were approximately 107 million barrels (http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_stoc_wstk_dcu_nus_m.htm) of gasoline stock. Also in June daily consumption was approximately 9 million barrels (http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/pet_cons_psup_dc_nus_mbblpd_m.htm). This works out to less than 1 day’s consumption stockpiled.

With a margin as thin as that, a little bit of panic buying goes a long way.

If you dig deeper at your first link you can find a week stock which show the weekly stock you see 06/06 has 105,560, 06/13 has 106,241, 06/20 has 106,292 and 06/27 has 106,707. So using you logic below there would be 424,800.






107 mb June gasoline stock

(9 mb/day * 30 days in June) = 270 mb June consumption

107 / 270 < 1

[Oldfart]

jseal, I cop this at home when I make deliberate misspeakings to rev up the rest.

[jseal]

Surely no one is suggesting that the oil companies are engaging in some good old-fashioned price gouging? Perish the thought... :bs:
Evidence? :rofl:

[jseal]

jseal, I cop this at home when I make deliberate misspeakings to rev up the rest.

Deliberate? Intentional?

Are you suggesting this? About what, if I may ask?

[wyndhy]

Where'd it go?!

i am reminded of the answer my brother in law always gave when someone asked where is....

























if it was up your ass you'd know it.
:D

[scotzoidman]

Evidence? :rofl:
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. :shrug:

[jseal]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. :shrug:
You made the suggestion. Now substantiate it. :rofl:

[scotzoidman]

You made the suggestion. Now substantiate it. :rofl:

Surely no one is suggesting that the oil companies are engaging in some good old-fashioned price gouging? Perish the thought...

Please don't tell me you don't see the built in disclaimer in my statement. In any case, I don't enjoy the debate process as much as you do. As my daddy told me, "Figures don't lie, but liars figure."

My daddy was a pretty smart man...

[jseal]

Ah, I see. You expect people to believe what you suggest because you suggested it. I guess that becomes a question of faith.

Good luck.

[Airy]

Surely no one is suggesting that the oil companies are engaging in some good old-fashioned price gouging? Perish the thought... :bs:

I won't jump to far into the fray here....I have what I am learning is a strange opinion on fuel shortages and prices.

We all cry and blame "THE BIG BAD OIL COMPANIES" (you can insert refineries, suppliers, distributors, whatever you want in there) for our current gas prices, shortages or even lack of gas what so ever.

I think that the one thing we all forget is that they are businesses. They exist to MAKE A PROFIT. Having fuel is not a 'god-given necessity'. Most of us take it for granted that we will have gas at the corner store whenever we need it and expect to pay only a certain amount for it. (BTW we have traditionally paid less in this country than just about anywhere else) We don't think about the fact that the gas company is there to MAKE MONEY.

The 'American Dream' was to come to this country...start from nothing and build your empire. The problem is that those that do exactly that are then criticized and even blamed for the hardship it may cause to others.

Yes I think poor planning and management affect gas shortages (they don't make money if they don't provide the product) but I think the fact that they can charge 5$ a gallon and that we PAY $5 a gallon just illustrates that we are willing to pay for it. They will continue to raise the prices and push the market to make the largest profit they can. Is this moral? Is this right? Who knows... that is for every person to decide for themselves. If you don't like paying 5$ a gallon...don't buy it. Invent an alternative...ride your bike...walk...whatever it takes to avoid spending your money and giving them a profit.

We have gotten so dependent on our cars and gasoline that we EXPECT and DEMAND certain things...they are there to make money....we have the choice to give it to them or not.

(And yes I realize that is a VERY simple view point on the whole issue and that the entire situation is very complex...but over all the basics still stand. They are a business and are out to make money....if you don't want to pay that price for something buy an alternative. We do the same thing with other products we buy).

OK.... Im ready....throw it all at me :argue:

(I will add that I just traded in my SUV ::SOBS LOUDLY:: for a Dodge Neon to pay only $40 every two weeks compared to my $65 every week in an effort to lower my gas spending and put maybe a penny less or so in the pockets of the gas companies - not a huge change but every little bit helps).

[jseal]

Airy,

Bold views! Bravely said! I wish you well, but envy you not.

[Airy]

Airy,

Bold views! Bravely said! I wish you well, but envy you not.

I have braced myself...I know it's coming. It happens every time I open my mouth on this topic.


BRING IT ON! :doorpeek:

[Lilith]

I don't have any problem with gas companies. I have a problem with all the government $$, tax breaks etc. that have been afforded them.

[Irish]

I won't jump to far into the fray here....I have what I am learning is a strange opinion on fuel shortages and prices.

We all cry and blame "THE BIG BAD OIL COMPANIES" (you can insert refineries, suppliers, distributors, whatever you want in there) for our current gas prices, shortages or even lack of gas what so ever.

I think that the one thing we all forget is that they are businesses. They exist to MAKE A PROFIT. Having fuel is not a 'god-given necessity'. Most of us take it for granted that we will have gas at the corner store whenever we need it and expect to pay only a certain amount for it. (BTW we have traditionally paid less in this country than just about anywhere else) We don't think about the fact that the gas company is there to MAKE MONEY.

The 'American Dream' was to come to this country...start from nothing and build your empire. The problem is that those that do exactly that are then criticized and even blamed for the hardship it may cause to others.

Yes I think poor planning and management affect gas shortages (they don't make money if they don't provide the product) but I think the fact that they can charge 5$ a gallon and that we PAY $5 a gallon just illustrates that we are willing to pay for it. They will continue to raise the prices and push the market to make the largest profit they can. Is this moral? Is this right? Who knows... that is for every person to decide for themselves. If you don't like paying 5$ a gallon...don't buy it. Invent an alternative...ride your bike...walk...whatever it takes to avoid spending your money and giving them a profit.

We have gotten so dependent on our cars and gasoline that we EXPECT and DEMAND certain things...they are there to make money....we have the choice to give it to them or not.

(And yes I realize that is a VERY simple view point on the whole issue and that the entire situation is very complex...but over all the basics still stand. They are a business and are out to make money....if you don't want to pay that price for something buy an alternative. We do the same thing with other products we buy).

OK.... Im ready....throw it all at me :argue:

(I will add that I just traded in my SUV ::SOBS LOUDLY:: for a Dodge Neon to pay only $40 every two weeks compared to my $65 every week in an effort to lower my gas spending and put maybe a penny less or so in the pockets of the gas companies - not a huge change but every little bit helps).
This may suprise you but having run two of my own businesses,I totally agree!
By the way,my wife & two daughters don't!I have worked until 2/3 in the morning,to make a profit & to keep my customers happy.Good business sense is like good sex.A satisfied customer is a repeat customer Irish :irish: (my $.02)

[Airy]

This may surprise you but having run two of my own businesses,I totally agree!
By the way,my wife & two daughters don't!I have worked until 2/3 in the morning,to make a profit & to keep my customers happy.Good business sense is like good sex.A satisfied customer is a repeat customer Irish :irish: (my $.02)

It surprised me until I read "having run two of my own businesses".

I also ran two businesses and worked my ASS off day after day after day (one would think it would be smaller by now)! As a small business owner (and a restaurant owner to boot - read the success rate of restaurants - the SBA won't even do restaurant loans for 90% of start ups! - thank you government assistance!!) it was all on me and my ability to successfully run my business to ensure a profit. Thankfully I was able to, and made a pretty damn good profit (if I do say so myself) but there was NO help from the government and I will honestly say as a Franchise owner, who was more successful than some of my peers, there was a feeling that I shouldn't be successful since they weren't...that I was to blame for making it work while they where unable to.

The "American Dream" is great for those that make it and build it and those that understand the hard work that goes into it...its a 24/7 all the time, no breaks, no sleep, you do it all from clean the toilet to shake hands with big wigs (remember to remove the rubber gloves first!). It always baffled me the other owners who where never in their stores or had no clue (down to the last ketchup packet) what their inventory was that they where surprised they didn't make a profit. I applaud anyone who goes out there and builds something and makes it work (no this does not include people like poor Paris Hilton who did nothing to earn it!) but blaming them for being successful does not solve the problem. We make them successful by buying their products and paying their prices.

Lilith - I agree about the government...and I will be the first to say they need to get out of my business (and everyone else's). But then...no one listens to me, and I think it will get worse before it gets better (if it ever gets better).

So much for not jumping into the fray! Thanks for commenting I was feeling like I just went to far and no one was going to touch it. :truce:

[Irish]

Rubber Gloves?Unneccessary expense!Besides it's more fun to shake hands with the bigwigs,when only you know!I ran two motorcycle repair &customising shops.Before there were motorcycle enthusiasts,there were
only Bikers.You don't tend to get alot of "Bigwigs" in that crowd! Irish :2cents:
P.S.How are you going to get the grease off of your hands,if you wear rubber gloves?(Just kidding,my attempt at humor)

[Airy]

Rubber Gloves?Unneccessary expense!Besides it's more fun to shake hands with the bigwigs,when only you know!I ran two motorcycle repair &customising shops.Before there were motorcycle enthusiasts,there were
only Bikers.You don't tend to get alot of "Bigwigs" in that crowd! Irish :2cents:
P.S.How are you going to get the grease off of your hands,if you wear rubber gloves?(Just kidding,my attempt at humor)


HA HA HA that was great! Well being in the food industry my guess is that using the gloves was a necessity not an extra expense (and trust me it amazes me I even eat in restaurants anymore knowing what I know about the back of a house!

[wyndhy]

i'd love to trade in my minivan for a more gas friendly car, unfortunately the government requires me to put all my kids in car seats and we couldn't fit into a compact car. not legally. hmmmm. but they do give me a tax break for my kids, so perhaps it evens out. oh wait, the break doesn't adjust for rising food and gas prices. or school taxes. or immunizations. or the cost of the car seats. i suppose it would be a lot cheaper for me (and them) if i could school my kids at home, but soon there will be certifications required to do that and they cost money, too. else, there'd be truancy issues and fines. oh, and the high costs of insurance on homes heated by woodstove. and the zoning laws that make commercial and industrial areas build so far away from residential that no-one can walk or bike to work. man, i wish the government could come up with some way to supplement the costs of my forced compliance to this energy guzzling economy in a more reasonable way, so i could put some money toward my future prospects and alternatives and enact a more cost effective distribution of my current resources with better returns.:blink:

[gekkogecko]

We all cry and blame "THE BIG BAD OIL COMPANIES" (you can insert refineries, suppliers, distributors, whatever you want in there) for our current gas prices, shortages or even lack of gas what so ever.


In *this particular case*, actually, I blame the oil speculators who keep trading their "shares" of the supply, artifically driving up the price when the market supply runs short.

I think that the one thing we all forget is that they are businesses. They exist to MAKE A PROFIT. Having fuel is not a 'god-given necessity'.


NEIITHER IS MAKING A PROFIT.

The 'American Dream' was to come to this country...start from nothing and build your empire. The problem is that those that do exactly that are then criticized and even blamed for the hardship it may cause to others.


And the problem is that American Dream is a lie...nobody, but NOBODY, despite the lie, EVER made something from nothing. It was in fact, ALWAYS built from the hardship of others. Hence, while the second part of this quote is often true, the referenced criticism is entirely justified.

[Airy]

In *this particular case*, actually, I blame the oil speculators who keep trading their "shares" of the supply, artifically driving up the price when the market supply runs short.



NEIITHER IS MAKING A PROFIT.



And the problem is that American Dream is a lie...nobody, but NOBODY, despite the lie, EVER made something from nothing. It was in fact, ALWAYS built from the hardship of others. Hence, while the second part of this quote is often true, the referenced criticism is entirely justified.

I dont know how to quote specific things individually (someone has to teach me please!)

As for the comments here are my responses...

The oil speculators are speculating on what we will pay and they are in the "business" of doing that and thats what makes them a profit. So kind of the same thing...I am not saying they are moral or just or right...just that they are doing it and making a profit as is the purpose of what they are doing.

No one claimed making a profit is a god given right but it is something we all strive for and even require to live. As crappy as it is....money makes the world go round.

As for the American Dream being a lie....you are very wrong. I have first hand experience in this reality. My grandfather fled Russia and walked into China...then took his family and fled China when the Japanese came in. He took his wife and 2 daughters to Australia. He left them there and moved to the US. Speaking NO English, having less than 5$ to his name. He worked 4 jobs (for Pan Am, painting houses, tending bar and in a jam factory). He lived in a water tower and after 5 years sent for his wife and 2 daughters. My grandmother was one of the first women doctors in China...she worked changing bed pans in the hospitals here because they wouldn't recognize her skills, she also cleaned houses, and did mending on the side. They all lived in that water tower. They saved and worked and bought a small deli...then later bought a house...and 50 years later (with NO government help and nothing but hard work) owned 2 successful businesses, over 20 houses/rental properties, put all of their grandchildren thru college with no student loans, and did all this themselves. They worked till the day they died. They built a legacy (sure we aren't the Hiltons) that has provided for and left enough for our children. The American Dream is possible....it's just not easy.

They did not build this at the expense of ANYONE. They did not play on the hardship of anyone. They worked hard, they sacrificed, and they had hard times. They also then spent years helping get other families out of China and other areas and help them.

Please don't get me wrong...I think that there are MANY that benefit at the expense of others...that is not the American Dream. But the American Dream is possible...its rare...but possible. My grandparents moved here because this is one of the few places such things are possible.

I won't disagree that many use the concept of the "American Dream" as a way of justifying the type of behavior you are talking about....that doesn't make it the American Dream nor does it make it right.


Wyndhy -

I agree and thankfully the only way I was able to trade in my SUV was that my oldest two are finally out of car seats and my youngest is in a booster. And not sure what I will do when they get a bit bigger!! They are growing so fast!! (Don't get me started on food costs or anything else!)

[Lord Snow]

I'm not complaining about anyone making a profit. My dad is trying to get his own franchise off the ground right now. What I'm complaining about is the lack of forethought regarding the hurricane, and several other things. Kind of sucks. As for government assistance......it seems that if you're white, a born citizen, and make about 35k a year (that includes combined incomes for you married couples) you won't get it. Or at least that's what it seems like.

[Airy]

I'm not complaining about anyone making a profit. My dad is trying to get his own franchise off the ground right now. What I'm complaining about is the lack of forethought regarding the hurricane, and several other things. Kind of sucks. As for government assistance......it seems that if you're white, a born citizen, and make about 35k a year (that includes combined incomes for you married couples) you won't get it. Or at least that's what it seems like.

I think you are right!

And the funny thing in my mind is that the lack of forethought and planning isn't good for business. So someone f'd up!

[citrus]

:2cents:
Well... :rant:
The big oil company owners spend big money to lobby congressional change. Bigger money=quicker change and more advantageous legislation. Since the big bucks influence law it is reasonable to get laws enacted that would save the big bucks first as disasters come along. Voila! Insurance bailouts. The oil companies don't want to self insure, they want big insurers to carry them. The insurance underwriters know which way the oil flows and puts the money where the profits are. Lawmakers can now nationalize insurers as insurers runs the oil companies. Oil companies and insurance companies buy advantages in laws and PRESTO-CHANGO Uncle Sam now is the proud father of foundering oil companies. The bosses of those oil companies pull out with massive profits and are forever rich while we are strapped with the tax burden and an oil company that we are tied to like brown on shit!
:cboy:

[scotzoidman]

Ah, I see. You expect people to believe what you suggest because you suggested it. I guess that becomes a question of faith.

Good luck.
Once again, you have taken to inserting words into someone else's mouth. All because I spoiled your fun by not taking the bait, & engaging in a link-posting battle. As I said, I can post figures proving I'm right, & you could post just as many to prove me wrong. Numbers, facts, figures can all be manipulated & massaged to suit the circumstances. All I know for sure is, I can't remember the last time I heard of an oil co. having to go into Chapter 11, or even having financial difficulties.

I stated in another thread that I don't suffer from high blood pressure...mostly that happens because I try to stay out of pointless point-of-view debates. Get a life. I don't need this.

[jseal]

... As I said, I can post figures proving I'm right ...
Actually, I doubbt that you can.

Good Luck

[jseal]

scotziodman,

Here are links to 4 Oil companies which have filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-87618/Kiel-Bros-Oil-Co-Inc.html
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE2DE1E3CF931A15755C0A967958260
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2005_Sept_26/ai_n15629988
http://www.cfo.com/article.cfm/11919660?f=most_read

[jseal]

i'd love to trade in my minivan for a more gas friendly car, unfortunately the government requires me to put all my kids in car seats ... the zoning laws that make commercial and industrial areas build so far away from residential that no-one can walk or bike to work ...
wyndhy,

Perhaps if we increased the involvement of government in the lives of the citizens, it could fix all those problems.

[Lilith]

*ignore*












oh! You can't put a whole thread on ignore. My bad :p

[jseal]

Did you want to ignore the thread when you were trying to make your point? :rofl:

[Airy]

:truce: :truce: :truce: :truce: :truce: :truce: :truce: :truce: :truce:

[Lilith]

Did you want to ignore the thread when you were trying to make your point? :rofl:

No, I was stating my point of view not trying to force anyone to agree with it or to change their views. It was when you once again obviously still suffering from a case of self importance, began challenging other's views that it caused another good conversation to go south. Thanks again. If there was a gold medal for obnoxious you'd be a freakin' champ. Really.

[wyndhy]

wyndhy,

Perhaps if we increased the involvement of government in the lives of the citizens, it could fix all those problems.
less "involvement" would suit me better.

[jseal]

Lord Snow,

I believe that Murfreesboro ran out of gas due to the combination of the interruption of supplies by Hurricane Ike, and the panic buying created by the rumor of shortages and/or large price increases. TingligTess, scotzoidman, and Lilith were discussing the shortage/price issue in the $$Gas$$ thread on the 12th & 13th. Lilith posted that her town also had problems almost as bad as yours.

As was commented on in that thread, some people jump to conclusions, and others join in without thinking. It is an unfortunate fact of life.

Has Murfreesboro been resupplied yet?

[Lord Snow]

Yeah, we got some. I went to the pumps today and they had nothing but the 87 octane in most of them. No mid or premium.

[gekkogecko]

I dont know how to quote specific things individually (someone has to teach me please!)

Merely cut and paste the individual quotes and on/off html commands individually.

I have first hand experience in this reality.

Actually this, would be second-hand, but tha's a very minor quibble. Not anywhere near as important as:

My grandfather fled Russia and walked into China...then took his family and fled China when the Japanese came in. He took his wife and 2 daughters to Australia. He left them there and moved to the US. Speaking NO English, having less than 5$ to his name. He worked 4 jobs (for Pan Am, painting houses, tending bar and in a jam factory). He lived in a water tower and after 5 years sent for his wife and 2 daughters. My grandmother was one of the first women doctors in China...she worked changing bed pans in the hospitals here because they wouldn't recognize her skills, she also cleaned houses, and did mending on the side. They all lived in that water tower. They saved and worked and bought a small deli...then later bought a house...and 50 years later (with NO government help and nothing but hard work) owned 2 successful businesses, over 20 houses/rental properties, put all of their grandchildren thru college with no student loans, and did all this themselves. They worked till the day they died. They built a legacy (sure we aren't the Hiltons) that has provided for and left enough for our children. The American Dream is possible....it's just not easy.

They did not build this at the expense of ANYONE. They did not play on the hardship of anyone. They worked hard, they sacrificed, and they had hard times. They also then spent years helping get other families out of China and other areas and help them.


Yeah, yeah, Ive heard this all before. "I/my father/my friend/my cultural hero, worked his/her/their assess off, and never exploited anyone", blah, blah, blah.

Hey, if that response seems dismissive, it's because it is.

The problem with this line of argument is that it totally ignores the vast majority of people who did exactly the same amount of work, worked exactly as hard as whomeever you're aggrandizing, and yet ended up with nothing to show for it.

The line of argument you're pursuing, (and I am attacking the argument, not you personally), is not much more than a continuance of the "blame the victim" mentality.

The social paradigm is that "In America, anyone can succeed. Therefore, if you don't succeed, there*must* be soemthing wrong with you."

...as opposed to the idea that we have something wrong with a system that encourages people to do whatever it takes (and "whatever" means "whatever": there can be found numerous examples of people who do succeed in socially acceptable ways that aren't as nasty as other, equally socially acceptable ways) to succeed. Indeed, "success" under this system is largely defined as being "better" than the majority of people, in whatever aspect you, the individual choose to emphasize.

[jseal]

Bonjour Jacques – toujours :rolleyes:

[Irish]

Merely cut and paste the individual quotes and on/off html commands individually.



Actually this, would be second-hand, but tha's a very minor quibble. Not anywhere near as important as:



Yeah, yeah, Ive heard this all before. "I/my father/my friend/my cultural hero, worked his/her/their assess off, and never exploited anyone", blah, blah, blah.

Hey, if that response seems dismissive, it's because it is.

The problem with this line of argument is that it totally ignores the vast majority of people who did exactly the same amount of work, worked exactly as hard as whomeever you're aggrandizing, and yet ended up with nothing to show for it.

The line of argument you're pursuing, (and I am attacking the argument, not you personally), is not much more than a continuance of the "blame the victim" mentality.

The social paradigm is that "In America, anyone can succeed. Therefore, if you don't succeed, there*must* be soemthing wrong with you."

...as opposed to the idea that we have something wrong with a system that encourages people to do whatever it takes (and "whatever" means "whatever": there can be found numerous examples of people who do succeed in socially acceptable ways that aren't as nasty as other, equally socially acceptable ways) to succeed. Indeed, "success" under this system is largely defined as being "better" than the majority of people, in whatever aspect you, the individual choose to emphasize.
Sounds as if someones bitter & also in favor of socialism! Irish :banghead:
P.S.Blame the Govt because I wasn't successful & don't know how to play the game!This is ExACTLY why I don't post much anymore!

[gekkogecko]

Hey, if that response seems dismissive, it's because it is.



It occurred to me as I was rushing off to work, that I should be clear, here: I am *not* dismissive of the work done by the referenced people, who were Airy's family.

I am dismissive of the line of argument that Airy advanced.

[jseal]

Comment allez-vous ?

[gekkogecko]

Sounds as if someones bitter & also in favor of socialism! Irish :banghead:

"Bitter"? You bet your frekin' ass. "Socialism"? I don't know. That term has been bandied about by so many different people in so many different ways, that I can't honestly say I'm in favor of "socialism" in whatever sense you're using it.

I can say this: I am in favor of a complete *communist* political, economic and social interaction, as I mean the therm "communist". Of course, that meaning is a whole different thread. Not going to go into that explanation here, now.


P.S.Blame the Govt because I wasn't successful & don't know how to play the game!

If you're levelling that charge at me, you're way off base. First of all, I know very well how to play the bourgeois game of screw thy neighbor. And second, you miss the opint: *I* don't blame "the government". I blame the power brokers that run the politico-economic system that sets up the majority of people to fail.

[Irish]

If everyone wants to be negative,I don't care!Have at it.I'm not going to get all stressed because of peoples attitudes.I'm going back to just worrying about my own family.Hard work has always gotten us by,you learn to do things for your loved ones nomatter who's in charge.If you figure out the best
deals,instead of jumping into things,you never get in monetary trouble!Just worry about your own & don't try to keep up with the Joneses(sp?)I quit,I'm
tired of debating things.Everyone has thier own opinions! Irish :pissed:

[scotzoidman]

Actually, I doubbt that you can.

Good Luck
What I really doubt is that anyone might ever get the last word with you.

[jseal]

scotzoidman,

I believe that you are mistaken. That ^^ happens often. As the evidence here at Pixies place will show, most of the threads in which I have posted do not end with my post.

This truth claim can be verified or falsified. Count the number of threads in which I have a post. Count the number of these threads which end with my post. If more than 50% of the threads in which I post end with my post, you are correct. If fewer than 50% of the threads in which I post end with my post, you are wrong.

That should be simple enough to do.

Good luck.

[Lilith]

Of jseal's 358,934 posts, 293,659 involve him counting to a million or from a million.

Scotz, if you actually give a rat's ass which I know you do not, throw those out before you start your fuzzy math.

[Oldfart]

Bonjour jseal.

Zis thread she seems to be well fuelled.

Wot say we start 'er up and see 'ow fast she does ze standing mile.

Irish, you can be ze starter and Mlle Lilith can catch ze buggers as zey fly off ze pier.

Did I forget to mention zat?

All ahead, wharf factor one.

[Oldfart]

What I really doubt is that anyone might ever get the last word with you.


FFS Zoid, I've been trying hard for the last few years.

[jseal]

Lord Snow,

How long was it before your town received supplies of premium gas? I presume there has been delivery of those grades by now.

[scotzoidman]

Of jseal's 358,934 posts, 293,659 involve him counting to a million or from a million.

Scotz, if you actually give a rat's ass which I know you do not, throw those out before you start your fuzzy math.
All I give a rat's ass about is the fact that nothing he could post would do anything but prove me correct. Now, everybody who bet against jseal answering me, pay up! :wink:

[jseal]

What I really doubt is that anyone might ever get the last word with you.
scotzoidman,

Actually, you made the suggestion. Now it is up to you to substantiate it.

... again.

Good Luck

[scotzoidman]

I can answer the question myself, I've been back & forth between the 'Boro & NashVegas (including other points in the mid-state)all weekend... most stations have nothing, some have received some kind of allotment, followed by long lines of panic buyers, followed by said stations being out of gas again the next day. I felt very lucky indeed to find fuel at Kroger in Smyrna (halfway between M'boro & Nash) this a.m., & at slightly less than $4/gallon, somewhat of a bargain. Tough times for those of us who drive for a living. :banghead:

All I need is a leisure suit & a disco ball, & it's back to the 70's again. :doorpeek:

[jseal]

I wonder how long it will take to get supply to balance demand there. There are no shortages up here in Maryland that I am aware of, and I have not heard about this on the network News programs.

Odd.

[wyndhy]

not really^^
it's not a shortage. it's spot shortages. if peeps would stop topping off every time they see somewhere has gas, instead of resuming the old routine of filling up when close to empty, this would not be happening.
and nat'l media lose interest in anything not life threatening, low-down, or political in 12 hours flat. ABC nightly couldn't care less anymore, so i don't know why some station a thousand miles away would care either.
AAA still cares.

scotz, i heard AAA is predicting this problem will last til the end of this week. dig in, dude.

[jseal]

wyndhy,

Could be. At least that provides a plausible explanation.

[wyndhy]

not could be. is. do a search using tennessee news sources and you'll find the info.

[jseal]

wyndhy,

Thank you. Would you PM or post those links? I’d like to see what they have to say.

[Lord Snow]

You do have a point. It's only middle Tennessee with the problem. Nashville, Murfreesboro, Smyrna, Franklin.......

[wyndhy]

wyndhy,

Thank you. Would you PM or post those links? I’d like to see what they have to say.
then you should have looked for them.
however, i took a moment to search for you. keywords tennessee and spot shortage. this was the most recent http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080921/NEWS01/809210379/1006/NEWS01

not for nuthin, jseal, but even when i tell my 7yo how and where to get the info she seeks, she at least makes an attempt.

[jseal]

then you should have looked for them.
however, i took a moment to search for you. keywords tennessee and spot shortage. this was the most recent http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080921/NEWS01/809210379/1006/NEWS01

not for nuthin, jseal, but even when i tell my 7yo how and where to get the info she seeks, she at least makes an attempt.
wyndhy,

While your rebuke was unjustified, I do thank you for substantiating your claims.

[wyndhy]

of course it was unjustified. i have no authority over you, and therefore no responsibility to give you a lesson in consideration, listening or research skills. but it was not unreasonable - i never said i had any links to share, and i did not offer any. you did not ask where i read or heard such info but intesad assumed i had the time and the inclination to search out old (to me) information and pass it on in a manner most convenient for you, with the rather insulting implication that i would claim something is true without any basis.

you're backhanded thanks are unnecessary. i did not provide it to substantiate my claim, as you say. but you are most welcome, anyhow - for the time i took from my day to provide you with easy access to a reasonable source that i believed contained enough information to satisfy your curiosity.

[jseal]

wyndhy,

Your criticism is unjustified. I did not, by asking you to substantiate your claim, imply that you were in any way being dishonest. It is perfectly reasonable to ask someone the source of their information. In conversation, this often takes the form of “Where did you hear that?” In a written discussion such as this it is reasonable to provide a url as the source of the information. If you would not be insulted when someone asks “Where did you hear that?” in one conversation, why would you feel insulted when someone else asks “Where did you learn that?” in another?

I did not know what search engine you used for your search, or what you used for your search. Changing either or both could well have changed the results. We have already seen in this thread what can happen when mistakes are made. By using the same url as you did, I would be minimizing the likelihood of another.

I have attempted to remain courteous in posts, even when I disagreed with the opinions posted by others. I would appreciate it if you would extend the same consideration to me.

[wyndhy]

fair enough. i will remain courteous. i will not use rolling-on-the-floor-laughing smilies, or rolling-eyes smilies or sarcasm or taunts.
again you declare me unjustified. this time i will justify myself.

i never said i had any links to share, only that i knew this information to be true and felt sure you could find this information as well. if you had cared to ask where i heard it, i would have gladly said on a short mid-show news and info segment on npr while i was driving to get my license renewed. instead, you thanked me for a suggestion you did not use and with no please, you asked would you pm or post those links? and so i found one, and posted it - quite courteous to do so, i felt - with a minor reprimand for your thoughtless assumption that i could just cut and paste and that would be that. for my trouble, i gained a thanks from you with the qualification that the thanks was for my ability to substantiate my claim, not for the time i took to search, or the lengthy article i culled which was chalk full of information and sources and spokesmen which i know you prefer.

i can be as cooly polite as the next person, but i will not be shamed into feeling unjustified in giving you a proper set down for your arrogant assumption that i was substantiating a claim instead of doing you a favor. and i am too smart not to recognize veiled insults.

[jseal]

wyndhy,

It is good to read that you will be courteous, and I share your confidence in the reliability of NPR news reporting.

As you did not indicate the source of your “not could be. is.”, it seemed reasonable to ask you the source of your assertion. That was an absolute claim. Within the context of this thread, where other truth claims have been made, and then left unsupported, I am surprised that you expected your assertion to be assumed true. I hoped you would be able to substantiate your claim, as doing so would move the discussion forward. My response “Thank you. Would you PM or post those links? I’d like to see what they have to say.” still seems innocuous to me. I believe you over reacted, although you disagree.

I do think that shared references (if they can be agreed upon) are very useful to explore a subject, as they help reduce ambiguity. This may help explain why I prefer a common url to a generalized directive. Your initial statement “i took a moment to search” does seem to be at odds with the subsequent “not for the time i took to search, or the lengthy article i culled which was chalk full of information”.

My reading of your posting history lead me to conclude that you do not believe you think your opinions may not be questioned. Perhaps I was mistaken, but I still believe it. Do you feel that I am arrogant to expect that those with whom I discuss subjects I wish to better understand should be able to support their positions? Perhaps this is where I disagree with you, and with others. I believe that when people make a truth claim, then they should be able to substantiate their claim, either with explanation or evidence.

[Lilith]

I believe that when people make a truth claim, then they should be able to substantiate their claim, either with explanation or evidence.

There is a difference between a truth claim and an opinion or view and no one, no one, needs to justify a damn thing to you here, ever. You are not owed or entitled to evidence or explanations. This is NOT a debate forum and if you are going to continue to reduce every conversation here to links and quibbling than I suggest you find a place to go that encourages debate.

[jseal]

There is a difference between a truth claim and an opinion or view ...
Lilith,

Yes mam, I agree with you.

[WildIrish]

/me breaks into song


I wanna kiss you in Paris
I wanna hold your hand in Rome
I wanna run naked in a rainstorm
Make love in a train cross-country
You put this in me
So now what, so now what?

Wanting, needing, waiting
For you to justify my love
Hoping, praying
For you to justify my love

[wyndhy]

Do you feel that I am arrogant to expect that those with whom I discuss subjects I wish to better understand should be able to support their positions?
yes, it is arrogant that you believe anyone you challenge should be responsible for providing you with information that would help you better understand. that they even care whether or not you think they have supported their posotion, and that said information must be sourced as well as being subject to your approval. it is provoking, the way you challenge certain statements to debate and censure and it is deliberately provoking because most of the ones you single out are made in obviously exaggerated complaint. it is rude the way you sound falsely polite and innocently interested when you ask for proof. and it’s pitiful, the need you had to research my post history. (and personally insulting, since we’ve had many discussions ourselves and i have been courteous, non-disparaging, and broad-minded.)

i respect your intelligence. i admire your interest in world and local events, past and present. i love that you take the time to say happy birthday to pixies with a colorful thread and warm wishes. as i said, we have had several lively discussions ourselves and i enjoy them until you whine about my tone because i have pointed out a place where i believe you were the one whose words or actions were unjustified. i would not challenge people in the way that you do. when people are having a discussion, there is nothing to be so affronted by. when people ask in conversation, as you said, “where did you hear that?” they do not add “and i doubt you heard it anywhere reasonable” before they get the answer. they do not worry about shared references. they do not yell or laugh at or hound someone who’s said they don’t want to talk. not if they expect people to continue to want to speak to them, or even tolerate their presence.

you said you are aware of the difference between opinion and fact but you are a very poor judge of when someone is actually claiming they are stating a fact or making a half-joke. and a very poor judge of humans in general if you believe that false kindness will go unmarked as the dismissal it really is and that people will want to respond to you, moving the conversation forward in an interesting way, when you speak to them with such acerbic self-importance. or perhaps you do know the difference, but choose to ignore it. i certainly feel that you know the difference between discussion and debate, but you choose to blur that line as well.

my father once asked me, "how do you see people? mostly good, or mostly bad?" i said mostly good. he told me i was naive. in for a lot of disappointment. that people would always be trying to take advantage. but he was wrong about how it would make me feel when that happened. when i give people the benefit of doubt, it is not my own doubt that benefits.

[scotzoidman]

/me smooches all over wyndhy :molest:

Once again, I couldn't have said it better myself...

(except for the capitalization & stuff) :rofl:

[WildIrish]

That's hot!






















Oh, I thought he said "spooch". :D

[scotzoidman]

not really^^
it's not a shortage. it's spot shortages. if peeps would stop topping off every time they see somewhere has gas, instead of resuming the old routine of filling up when close to empty, this would not be happening.
and nat'l media lose interest in anything not life threatening, low-down, or political in 12 hours flat. ABC nightly couldn't care less anymore, so i don't know why some station a thousand miles away would care either.
AAA still cares.

scotz, i heard AAA is predicting this problem will last til the end of this week. dig in, dude.
Also, my thinking edzachery ;) Got under my skin just a little Friday night, after stopping at the shortest line & waiting for a half hour, to see some a$$hole filling up a plastic gas can as well as his tank. I was at least decent enough not to top up my tank when My turn came, just got enough to get where I was going, & back home. And as usual, nice guys finish last...had to borrow wife's car for a Sat nite run.

I also heard on the local news tonite that exacerbating our problems in Nash is the fact that during the summer months, EPA requires that we use a special (read: expensive) blend of gas for meeting emissions standards, & all the fuel stations try to use up all there high priced stuff before the end of the summer. The end date for our special blend just happened to fall as Ike was tearing up jack on the Texas gulf...& just to twist the knife, we got maybe an inch of rain as Ike's remains petered out....

[scotzoidman]

scotzoidman,

Actually, you made the suggestion. Now it is up to you to substantiate it.

... again.

Good Luck
Did I miss something? Did someone die & put you in charge of who has to back up whatever they say? I never got the memo...

And, as much as it pains me to have to repeat it, YOU substantiated my remark by having to have the last fuckin' word...


Again...

[jseal]

wyndhy,

I thank you for the compliments.

You are mistaken if you think I researched your post history. I had no need to do so. As you mentioned in your post we have had lively discussions in the past. You need not pity me for something I did not do, nor should you feel insulted by something which did not occur.

In our discussion I do not recall adding “and i doubt you heard it anywhere reasonable” to any request I made to you for additional information. I think that people do care about shared or common references. Knowing that the other members of the discussion are aware of the basis of a claim gives the people involved in the discussion the confidence to extend and expand the limits of the ideas involved in the discussion. Contrast this with the alternative where no one is certain where the others are getting their explanations or evidence. It is much more difficult to move a discussion from one place to another if the participants do not share a common basis for their considerations. On this issue I feel you have erred.

I do know the difference between discussion and debate. I believe you do also. I have never known debate to occur here. It does not currently do so, and I have every reason to believe that it will not. You must also be aware that discussion is informal debate. The line between them is blurry. The distinction is not sharp. It is a mistake to suggest otherwise.

[wyndhy]

you asked if i thought, i answered you based on my temperament. i am not mistaken. i have not erred. i can’t have because these are my thoughts on the subject. they are not misinformation to correct. i am not a combative person. i do not seek to put others on the defensive. and if i am interested enough to know more, or if i doubt a person’s statement, i search for my own answers.

you said your reading of my post history lead you to a conclusion, i don’t know what other that can mean than what it says. please excuse the misunderstanding. i am absurdly relieved that you didn't do that. it seemed very ... odd and sad. but i have a bone to pick, so excuse me moment - you don’t recall adding and i doubt you heard it anywhere reasonable? you mean you’re not sure or just don't remember? it seems an odd sort of phrase. didn’t you go back and check? i am wondering because "i did not say that" would be a more appropriate statement. i’m sure you know perfectly well you didn’t say that that to me, or to anyone else in those exact words. i’m also sure you understood my point perfectly. don’t be smarmy, it doesn’t suit you.

discussion is not informal debate. informal debate still has rules and structure. formal discussion can be debate but this is not even formal discussion, it’s just discussion - discourse, if you prefer - and it will move on as long as anyone has anything to say, relevant to the topic or no. and people will usually still have things to say until someone stops them in their tracks with a challenge. that is when discussion turns into contention. then it stops. not because no-one is certain where others are getting their explanations, but because it becomes a match of opposition. opposition pretty much rules out progression. like pong. back and forth the point goes until someone decides they don’t want to play anymore.


i belivee it boils down to temperament and we see this place, pixies-place, differently. we come here with different attitudes and we come here for different reasons. we appraoch a thread or discussion with very different expectations. because i look at this place as a home-ish sort of place, a place of retreat of sorts, i respect it and all the people in it. i treat them as i would a friend, or at the very least an acquaintance to whom i can wave on occasion. at the very, very least i can try to treat everyone with respect, even when i disagree. but if i can't seem to manage even that, then this place deserves my silence.

[jseal]

wyndhy,

I read your post as a conclusion. In it you made some comments. Believing this to be true, I will provide mine.

Just because you are the owner of your thoughts does not mean that you cannot be mistaken.

I did understand what you meant, and I don’t recall making the statement to which you refer.

Discussion is informal debate. That is how Webster’s and Random House dictionaries define it.

[Lilith]

Fuck them. We define our own 'Lix'icon here. Be nice or be quiet.

[BamaKyttn]

>blows whistle< ok all of you chill. if you cant stay on topic and take potshots at each other ....... :jacques: start a new thread, girls go to a corner and play...... J honey looks like you'll be playing alone.


woot We have gasoline here and at a reasonable (for these days) price. 3.55 a gallon thank god


runs and hides


Kyttn

[Lord Snow]

It's finally getting straightened out up here. People have almost stopped the panic buying it seems. Last time I filled it was 3.88, but hey it was there.

[Lilith]

We had a station last week at nearly $6. Most are $3.67-$3.79 now and all have gas.

[scotzoidman]

We had a station last week at nearly $6. Most are $3.67-$3.79 now and all have gas.
I seem to recall your guv declaring that he was going headhunting for anybody price-gouging...maybe sometimes a little public sabre rattling puts everybody on best behavior?