What is it with americans and guns

[smithy020]

just seen on the BBC website that there has been another school shooting in Ohio. What is it with americans wanting to kill each other?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7038532.stm

[Lilith]

We are blood thirsty homicidal maniacs. Best not to fuck with us.

[Oldfart]

Too many have been taught from birth through the mass media that anger is best dealt with through aggression. The best defence is a good offence.

[jseal]

smithy020,

Your question is the basis of a cottage industry amongst the Sociologists.

[PantyFanatic]

Is your question about guns or Americans wanting to kill each other? :confused:

[lc69hunter]

Is your question about guns or Americans wanting to kill each other? :confused:

Valid comment. Misleading title to the thread.

It's not about guns. It's about 15 minutes of fame.

Some wackjob goes off and kills some people, and the talking heads in the media beat it to death for the next 2 weeks. Next thing is, you have a copycat.

I have firearms, and am proficient in their use. I have a CCP also. I have never killed anybody, except in combat.

But break into my house, and threaten me or my family, and see what happens. Call the undertaker before you come in.

[Aqua]

I disagree. If guns were not so readily accessible in this country, these 'wackjobs' you speak of might just give up before they start. At the very least, the wake of their destruction would be severely diminished.

[lc69hunter]

Aqua,

This is not the place for us to be having this discussion. We have both said our respective piece on the issue.

You and I disagree, and to be truthful, we could argue this back and forth for hours and not change each other's mind. That's just human nature.

I suggest we have a beer and agree to disagree :cheers:

[Aqua]

lc69hunter,

I concur wholeheartedly.

:cheers:

[osuche]

Cleveland finally made global news :rolleyes:

[Oldfart]

lc69hunter,

I concur wholeheartedly.

:cheers:

Does this mean that you can now argue about who is buying?

[Teddy Bear]

Why make it sound like it's just Americans?




I'll buy the first round. :)

[dicksbro]

I looked up "per capita murder rates" and located this site ....

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

It's interesting that while the US is noted for the violence, they're statistics put us at number 24 in the world. Granted, many of the other countries have other reasons for the killings, but interesting none-the-less. The murders were not listed by particular weapon type or means.

[Teddy Bear]

Thanks DB that is interesting.

The media has alot to do with how things are perceived around the world and thier view of American's.

[Oldfart]

Why make it sound like it's just Americans?




I'll buy the first round. :)

It's not just the Americans, but you do lead the "first" world while Australia's stuck between Iceland and Canada.

The legality and proliferation of handguns is the dark side of the American love affair with firearms. This you have accepted as a country to meet the "Right to bear arms" constitutional amendment.

It is a lot harder to sneak in a shotgun or a Springfield carbine into a classroom.

These are your laws, your national decisions and the price you pay for your continued ability to defend your homes from threats created by the same laws.

[Loulabelle]

What I find even more terrifying than foolish American kids shooting each other with guns, is the foolish British kids who seem to be aping their behaviour more and more.

Who is the bigger fool - the fool that kills, or the fool that copies the other fools and kills?

Either way, these children (and yes, a 14 year old should still be a child) should not have access to guns, and in my opinion, the laws, the media, society in general need to change in order to prevent them wanting, obtaining and using them.

[Lilith]

I'd prefer to pay the police a decent living wage and let them protect my home, family, and possessions.

I've been the "victim" of a crime involving a gun and my worst fear is the day one of my students decides to bring one to school. I have no problem with hunting and hunting rifles but I personally abhore guns (hand guns, automatic and semi-autos) and find their use in a civilized society unnecessary.

[jseal]

Loulabelle,

Given the gun ownership laws in place in the UK, I would have thought that you had achieved your goals.

[Loulabelle]

Jseal, I'm afraid I think the parents of Rhys Jones (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/7032367.stm) would disagree.

[WildIrish]

Guns are, and should be, reasonably accessible to those that are legally able to purchase and own them.

Laws put in place to determine the eligibilty of those wishing to legally obtain a firearm work when followed.

The answer is not to pass harsher legislation that would impose more stringent requirements upon those that purchase firearms through legal means. The answer is to identify and eliminate the points of access that are not following the existing laws.

Don't punish the people that are following the law...go after the ones that aren't!

[dicksbro]

I agree WI. I don't own a gun and don't wish to, but I know many that do for hunting or other legitmate sporting activities. Certainly, the emphasis must be on reliable sources of identity verification and merchants who are using them as intended.

[jseal]

Loulabelle,

It would seem that for you the only acceptable number is zero. If so, then you will need to campaign for the private ownership of knives to also be made illegal in the UK (The Firearms (Amendment) (No. 2) Act 1997), as they are the weapon of choice.

There are several times more knife-related killings as firearms-related killings. The same holds true for the Use of weapons in violent incidents. I refer here to Crime in England and Wales 2006/07 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/17_07_07_crime.pdf) page 63 & Table 3.05, produced by the Research, Development and Statistics Directorate for the Home Office.

[PantyFanatic]

I'd prefer to pay the police a decent living wage and let them protect my home, family, and possessions......
That should happen about the same time they pay the teacher of our society a decent living wage and there are enough good ones to help reinforce the parents consistent teaching of personal responsibility, work ethics, critical thinking and fairness. I'm sure it will all happen about the same time they assign a personal body guard to every citizen who may encounter somebody that missed those classes. :sad:

I think most Pixies know my considered convictions on this matter that is a hot button at all levels and in all American locations. I have no intent to argue the points of the issue here but will repeat the catch-22 slogan of my willingness to surrender my personal guns when you can assure me they are the last ones.

After viewing Mr.Moore's, Bowling For Columbine, I had to focus on and consider the comparisons of attitude and cultural examples (morals, societal views, living environments) between Canada and the US. For me, people .....not weapons, still are the center of the issue. :shrug:

[Steph]

After viewing Mr.Moore's, Bowling For Columbine, I had to focus on and consider the comparisons of attitude and cultural examples (morals, societal views, living environments) between Canada and the US. For me, people .....not weapons, still are the center of the issue. :shrug:

I studied homicide rates at a graduate level and have to counter DB's link. I love you DB but Columbia is #1 in that list. I know you said "many of the other countries have other reasons for the killings" but comparing Columbia to Canada is truly apples to oranges.

What you have to realize (and I'm not directing this at you, DB) is that the US appears FIRST on that list when you're talking about developed countries.

I actually nodded when I read what Aqua wrote - the ease of gun ownership in America is so different than your neighbours to the north.

And osuche, I would think most Cleveland residents would have preferred the Cleveland Indians take the "global" spotlight over this tragedy.

[osuche]

I studied homicide rates at a graduate level .


That's the most interesting degree I've ever heard of. I can't even imagine the stress that must have put you under - studying information about homicides and statiscics for years on end.

Stistics do lie, I understand. Better to work with the raw data - and I don't like the data I see coming out of either the US or Canada. It feels a little like we're rearranging chairs on a sinking ship.

[Steph]

That's the most interesting degree I've ever heard of. I can't even imagine the stress that must have put you under - studying information about homicides and statiscics for years on end.

Stistics do lie, I understand. Better to work with the raw data - and I don't like the data I see coming out of either the US or Canada. It feels a little like we're rearranging chairs on a sinking ship.

Your spelling mistakes aside, I'm not sure where you're going.

I SPELLED out where I was going there. I did a FEW courses on homicide.

There was no stress. I had no EGO (though it's hard for you to imagine, I would assume).

I didn't say that was my degree. I'm telling you I studied homicide rates in First World Countries.

I'm finding it hard to talk to you via the Internet when you're feeding me:

Stistics do lie

And you're jseal's friend.

Please tell me how you're adding to this conversation.

[Steph]

smithy020,

Your question is the basis of a cottage industry amongst the Sociologists.

And can you tell us your opinion, jseal?

You have obviously cared enough to respond to this post. I'd be interested to hear your PERSONAL experiences.

[osuche]

Yeah, I guess I should add a new thread spitting invective at someone - that adds a lot to the conversation.

My point - as stated - was that we're rearranging chairs on a sinking ship. I don't care whether America or Canada or Zimbabwe is statistically worse when it comes to homocides via guns. I think we should spend some time figuring out how we solve the problem. The aggregate data have too many causalities - access to guns, population density, state of local government, socioeconomic disparities, etc (just to name a few).

The bigger question - the one we all need to be discussing - is how to we contribute to a solution. That's bigger than invective.

[Steph]

[QUOTE=osuche]That's the most interesting degree I've ever heard of. QUOTE]

Honestly, I have to revisit this.

Ms. Berkelely, I'd have thought you'd have more perspective.

I'm waiting with baited breath to hear how you EVER thought I said I had a degree in a subject.

Your ignorance, as is jseal's, is showing.

Aren't you awesome?

And since we're going there,

if you're helping a company, you're in school, AND married to an Indian, tell me about how you find the time to be here.

Methinks you're fronting.

AND

OH

YES

You ASSUMED a lot of shit about me.

Waiting for your answer, sweetheart.

[osuche]

:x:

/me backs slowly away from this thread, as I know it's really not worth it.


la dee dee, la de daa, life goes on...

[PantyFanatic]

:banghead:

[Teddy Bear]

OMG.... We had Chinese food for supper (i know--whoopie!).....

I just ate my fortune cookie now (another -- yeah, so?).......

Here's what it said: Work on your diplomatic skills and avoid conflict at all costs.

Lets leave the guns and all the bad feelings outside of Pixies and resume the perving. ;)


For Steph: (come chill out with teddy)

[osuche]

((((Teddy))))

:x: Peace and love to all....and to all a good night.

[Teddy Bear]

I need a Hershey bar!!


:D

[jseal]

Steph,

You caught me! I should have known it would be impossible to state that violence in American society (and gun violence in particular) is a topic which has justified scores of studies over decades by many sociologists. Well, impossible to state without being criticized for doing so.

Sorry about that.

When I have taken a few more courses at a graduate level – this time in sociology and, perhaps in criminology, I will provide some “PERSONAL experiences”.

[lc69hunter]

I suggest everyone who has posted in this thread go back and read posts #7 & #8.

This is a debate that has no place in this forum. Aqua & I agreed to disagree and let it die.

I consider myself an expert on this topic, and could throw numbers and statistics with anyone.

However, as I said earlier, we could debate this topic until we were blue in the face. It would change no one's mind, and would probably create bitterness that would bleed over to other areas of the forum.

Let it go.

[PantyFanatic]

Wise choice.

[LixyChick]

^^^ Not much to add but...

Holy Moly!

[WildIrish]

Too late...can't unring the bell.

[LixyChick]

*gnod gnid*

[WildIrish]

Nice try. :p

[CrazeeeWhorse]

We are blood thirsty homicidal maniacs. Best not to fuck with us.
:rose: Damn, Ms. Lilith,You Fucking Make Me Hot...Smithy 020, What is it with "Scottish Boys" wanting to wear short,school girl skirts around town? And asking Ignorant Questions with Racial Undertones? (Americans this, and Americans that) When Everybody knows,Americans dont want to kill Americans, WE Americans want to kill Osama Bin Laden,is he hiding up in one them little skirts you boys love to wear? :ahole: Crazeeeeeee,,,,,,,,,,

[Lilith]

This is why we do not permit flaming and other maliciousness. One person does it and then somehow newer members think it's ok to be disrespectful as well.

We all need to find ways to state our own ideas with out personally attacking the ideas/views/perceptions of others. Have your say, but do so respectful of the views of others.

[PantyFanatic]

Somebody Stop Me,,,

She ^^^ will. ;)

[smithy020]

I think i opened a can of worms here that i shouldnt have,

[Oldfart]

No, it was a fair, if explosive, question.

We have our say, listen to the others and then go on.

"*gnod gnid*"

Can I have that in stereo please?

[FussyPucker]

I looked up "per capita murder rates" and located this site ....

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

It's interesting that while the US is noted for the violence, they're statistics put us at number 24 in the world. Granted, many of the other countries have other reasons for the killings, but interesting none-the-less. The murders were not listed by particular weapon type or means.

Just posting for the interest here, on the same site I found Murders with firearms (per capita) (Latest available) by country :-
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir_percap-crime-murders-firearms-per-capita

UK goes up from 46th to 32nd and the US goes up from 24th to 8th.

[Oldfart]

Australia got a promotion too.

Did you notice that the first Islamic country was #30.

Is that a lack of data or a lot more knives and RPGs?

[dicksbro]

I didn't see that category, FP. Thanks. That's what I had really wanted to find.

Hmmmm ... I wonder who does lead in murders by RPGs?

[jseal]

I have found that tools serve to amplify the intent of the individual using them.

[Oldfart]

Ever since Moon Watcher.

[WildIrish]

If ya show your ass...someone's gonna watch.

[Oldfart]

WI, Moon Watcher was the apeman at the beginning of 2001 a space odyssey, you remember the scene of the bashing of the bones.