OMG how stupid

[rzande1]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/02/02/us.climate.reax.ap/index.html

"Despite a strongly worded global warming report from the world's top climate scientists, the Bush administration expressed continued opposition Friday to mandatory reductions in heat-trapping "greenhouse" gases."

Can he be any stupider!!!!!

[PantyFanatic]

Look at his other deeds :shrug:

[wyndhy]

he's not stupid, he's the decider! :D

[rzande1]

I cant stand him. I know my parents say dont worry about it because it will just give me an ulcer but yea i cant help it. It drives me mad the stupid crap he does.

[IowaMan]

Mr. Bush certainly does have his moments, I'll give him that. I try not to think about him.

[PantyFanatic]

he's not stupid, he's the decider! :D
and 'BOY!', has he been deciding :banghead:

[wyndhy]

but pf, we elected him...we have no right to complain. :p:D

[Cheyanne]

but pf, we elected him...we have no right to complain. :p:D


I thought he was "selected"

[wyndhy]

ffffftht! semantics...what's one little s?

[IowaMan]

Okay, I can't hold back anymore. I'm sure this one has been posted here in the jokes thread but it was in Playboy again this past month and it just rings true:

What did George W. Bush get on his SAT's?


........ Barbecue Sauce

:roflmao:

[PantyFanatic]

:rofl:

[PantyFanatic]

(We better keep laughing :banghead: )

[IowaMan]

True, very true. Hell, I can't even do this..... :hair: anymore because there isn't any left on this dome of mine. :(

[rzande1]

http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/02/news/companies/exxon_science/index.htm?cnn=yes

This is even better. I think the companies and the nutjobs are starting to worry that the public is taking their heads out of the sand slowly and going to start fighting for their rights and planet. One of my buddies told me that they found that 10 percent of the american public has registered for the minute men project lol.

[rzande1]

I seriously think more and more government reform organizations are going to be popping up. I mean honestly we elect politicians and what do they do? Nothing. Same old stuff and the people suffer.

[Cheyanne]

ffffftht! semantics...what's one little s?


Not only are you sexy, but you spell good too! ;) LOL

[PantyFanatic]

... I mean honestly we elect politicians and what do they do? Nothing. Same old stuff and the people suffer.
Not true.

They devote a LOT of attention and most of their time ........ To getting reelected.

I am SO disgusted with EVERY segment of government, every 'party', the media and my fellow citizen that are focused on an election that is a year and a half away. This they ALL do at a time when our country is in more duress than has ever been present in my life time. ANYTHING associated to actually running the country is only done in relationship to the election.
:kissass:

[rzande1]

What is also really disgusting to me is how the american public in general goes along as our rights as citizens are stripped away. Think about it. We have lost alot. This is why I hope the right to bear arms is never lost....even though it is slowly being taken away. I know people say they are bad but first off an armed population is much more resistant to invasion. (china invading us is a problem due to our military sucking now, being deployed everywhere, oh and the fact that china could throw 10 million at us and not flinch). Also I see the population being armed as a symbol. Part of what the founding fathers said was that the government should be fearful of the people and not the other way around. The government is there for the service of the people. When the citizens are no longer armed they loose their ability to take control of the government again when it goes amuck.

Look at the censorship and lies we are being fed. It is disgusting.

[rzande1]

Oh and i forgot to complain about free trade. The government keeps forgetting something. They need to do what is in the best interests of the country it represents. Our trade deficits suck suck suck.

[PantyFanatic]

Oh and i forgot to complain about ........
That's in another thread. ;)

[Scarecrow]

The Rise and Fall of the USA ... I mean Rome

When in Rome ...

[wyndhy]

the problem is that's it's called global warming ...that's a very threatening phrase. good grief, people think, it’s whole globe! whatever can we do?! we’re dooooooooooomed forrrreeeeevvverrrr! and then they cry and that’s scary. they just don’t want to be scared.

what the climatologists need to do is get the official global warming wordsmith to get the word out that it’s just climate change...climate change…ahhh…that’s nice. i like it. it’s safe, harmless, vapid. hell, the climate changes every day and that’s not scary. plus i think dubbya could get behind vapid. :p

[jseal]

... Our trade deficits suck suck suck.
rzande1,

Why do you say that? It seems like an odd claim.

[wyndhy]

jseal, why is that odd? even taking into account service surpluses, the goods deficit is still huge…about twice as much as the service surplus i think…and the current accounts deficit (macro-wise) is pretty frikkin big, too. foreign income receipts and payments are pretty much a wash, but if confidence in the us dollar drops, those receipts will drop, too. i think it's too much to bank on (no pun intended...ok, yeah it was :D) - that the rest of the world's romance with the us dollar will continue. already the us dollar has lost more value relative to the euro and other major world currencies. if confidence continues to fall, it would affect stock prices, the ability of domestic companies to invest in foreign assets, etc. in the past, we've pressured other countries to buy the us dollar to keep its value stable but if foreign countries don't want the dollar anymore, maybe because we've pissed them off too much, what then?

what's not to suck?

[jseal]

... what's not to suck?
wyndhy,

Well, as the U.S. balance of payments for trade in Goods and Services has been in deficit for 35 of the last 36 years (http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/historical/gands.txt), I’d suspect that if there was some essential suckiness in running a trade deficit, said suckiness would have shown up by now.

Let us make the assumption that running a trade deficit is bad. How has that badness been realized? Are Americans worse off now than they were in 1970? If so, it what way(s)? Is the unemployment rate higher than ever before? Has life expectancy decreased? I note that your concerns above are about what might happen, not what has happened.

Let us invert the argument. Are you suggesting that were the U.S. were to run a trade surplus, that surplus would suck for all the countries which would, by definition, be running a trade deficit with the U.S.?

A net outflow of money from the U.S. has paid for by a corresponding inflow of goods and services. Are you suggesting that Americans be prevented from purchasing those goods at the lowest price? If so, why?

[rzande1]

Oh lets not forget to talk about how the government finances itself. They sell tbills and then when they are up they sell more tbills to cover the originals and the interest incured. OMG it is a damn disaster. Show me a bank that will let individuals do this idiotic thing.

[jseal]

... Show me a bank that will let individuals do this idiotic thing.
rzande1,

T Bills are debt obligations issued by the U.S. government. Corporations issue bonds for the same purpose. The analogue for individuals would be credit card debt. All these debts are purchased (and sold) by banks.

[rzande1]

Ok first off our trade deficits are terrible because it is the export of wealth from the country. The wealth is transfered out of the country to others. They now sit on all these dollars. What can they do with it? They buy our debt and then they invest in our industries. They do this and make more money. Then what happens is they reinvest even more and more in the country. This is an endless cycle here. The problem is that at some point people start to loose their confidence in our economy as our debt to others grows. Just like as has been said by jseal a credit card. Well unfortunately....as you build a larger and larger and larger balance you eventually get to the point where hey i cannot make the minimum payment. Well what happens when the us can no longer make that payment and no one will lend us more money to pay the interest? We get screwed. Our dollar value will fall into worthlessness and we will have problems. Then look at for example china. They are sitting on huge amounts of dollars. Why is this a problem? Well sure we get crap cheap from them now....but we weaken ourselves. We loose our ability to manufacture at the levels that we need if lets say there is a war. We loose our high tech and defense manufactures and then we get hurt because we dont make our own tanks etc. Did you know for example boeing is building a plant in vietnam? Well back to china. Imagine what will happen if they were to dump all that onto the market? Down it goes. Also it becomes a weapon. Say we want energy and they want the same. We can afford it. Well they dump enough currency on the market so that ours isnt worth enough. Now we cannot afford it. Or they use it as a threat. Say in war this happen. We can no longer buy from our allies. Shall I continue? BTW jseal your argument doesnt work. At a certain point credit cards run out of available credit. We cannot print money either. Only the government can do this. Only the government can get away doing this without any stopping it.

P.S. Check the amount of that the us actually owns of their own industries and natural resources. U will be very surprised.

[jseal]

Ok first off our trade deficits are terrible because it is the export of wealth from the country. The wealth is transfered out of the country to others. They now sit on all these dollars. What can they do with it? They buy our debt and then they invest in our industries. They do this and make more money. Then what happens is they reinvest even more and more in the country. This is an endless cycle here.

Actually, that is a good thing. The foreign investment you refer to builds, for example, manufacturing facilities here in the U.S. The automobile plants of Toyota serve as a useful example. The facilities were built by American construction workers. The facilities employ American workers. The products these facilities produce are sold primarily to Americans. If these products are less expensive than comparable “American” automobiles, then the American consumers benefit. That portion of the output not consumed here in the U.S. is exported, employing additional Americans and increasing American exports.

The problem is that at some point people start to loose their confidence in our economy as our debt to others grows. Just like as has been said by jseal a credit card. Well unfortunately....as you build a larger and larger and larger balance you eventually get to the point where hey i cannot make the minimum payment. Well what happens when the us can no longer make that payment and no one will lend us more money to pay the interest? We get screwed. Our dollar value will fall into worthlessness and we will have problems.

In your scenario above, as the exchange rate for the U.S. dollar drops, the cost in dollars of imported goods increases, suppressing demand for the now more expensive imported products and redirecting American purchasing towards locally produced goods and services.

Then look at for example china. They are sitting on huge amounts of dollars. Why is this a problem? Well sure we get crap cheap from them now....but we weaken ourselves. We loose our ability to manufacture at the levels that we need if lets say there is a war. We loose our high tech and defense manufactures and then we get hurt because we dont make our own tanks etc. Did you know for example boeing is building a plant in vietnam?

The Boeing 747, 767, 777, and now the 787 aircraft are manufactured in Everett, Washington. Which airframes are manufactured in Vietnam?

Well back to china. Imagine what will happen if they were to dump all that onto the market? Down it goes. Also it becomes a weapon. Say we want energy and they want the same. We can afford it. Well they dump enough currency on the market so that ours isnt worth enough.

In order to do that, the debt would have to be sold at a loss. Given that the 2005 U.S. GDP (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/us.html) was $12.49 Trillion, and the 2005 Chinese GDP (https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/ch.html) was 2.225 Trillion, which economy do you think would be most severely hurt by that event?


Now we cannot afford it. Or they use it as a threat. Say in war this happen. We can no longer buy from our allies. Shall I continue? BTW jseal your argument doesnt work. At a certain point credit cards run out of available credit. We cannot print money either. Only the government can do this. Only the government can get away doing this without any stopping it.

Actually, the government cannot get away with it. The debit will be paid one way or another. If the government prints more money to pay the debts, the supply of money will increase, and with it inflation. For a vivid example of this, ref Weimar Germany circa 1923 (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheights/shared/minitext/ess_germanhyperinflation.html).

P.S. Check the amount of that the us actually owns of their own industries and natural resources. U will be very surprised.

Why does that matter?

[wyndhy]

jseal, i’m not talking quality of life; i’m talking fiscal responsibility, economic diversity and money management. this old gray mare just ain't what she used to be and we can't keep operating as if she was. it’s not just the trade deficit numbers that act as the sole standard for gauging the economic might of the us, it’s all the stuff i mentioned before plus the need to look ahead at the could happens. when there is no more third world to exploit, when most other major foreign currencies are just as valued as the us dollar, when the technological leverage (where most our service surplus comes from) that we have barely managed to hold onto (and has indeed been slipping since ww2) is gone, when our world has become so amalgamated that there are no longer super powers just superior efficacy, our deficit and overall economic value (as in what can we bring to the table in the form of money, goods or services) is going to be the single biggest factor in where we will fit into this new world.

[rzande1]

See unfortunately you are looking at it slanted. Toyota opens one plant. 5 american plants that were standing are gone. Also those factories make some jobs but replacement isnt equal or greater. The income from those foreign investments goes out of the country and not in. They are building a factory in vietnam. They arent building planes there now. See the surpressing thing isnt really true. All the people do is buy more. Plus a direct argument is that well using the same principle china increases their production and the supply of goods increases thereby reducing the price. The government is infact getting away with this crazy borrowing cycle. Also what makes you think that the government would report the printing of dollars. The dropping of all of the currency onto the market would not really hurt them. They can unbenchmark their currency against ours. remember their monetary policy is to hold foreign and not let foreign hold theirs. How you ask does it matter if our industries and resources are foreign owned. Well let me try and explain this. All income does not enrich our nation's wealth. It goes to enriching others who in turn are able to reinvest and gain more and more out of us. It is an endless cycle of wealth transfer out of the country.

[wyndhy]

the two tiered labor market. goes with the two party system i suppose. :D

[jseal]

wyndhy,

Yess’m I agree with you. It is not it’s not just the trade deficit numbers that act as the sole standard for gauging an economy.

Here are a variety of numbers comparing the state of the U.S. economy from 1960 through 2003 to that of some of the nations with which it runs a trade deficit (http://www.demographia.com/db-ppp60+.htm). From 1971, when the U.S. began to run the persistent balance of trade deficit which so alarms some people the U.S. economy has been ranked #1 every year.

In the table “Compared To The United States” I direct your attention in particular to the column of of Japan, a country with which the U.S. has run a large trade deficit for may years. Note that after coming ever closer to the U.S. standard, it achieved its closest approach in 1991 of 84% of U.S. and subsequently lost ground.

I'm afraid that the measurements fail to support the claims.

[wyndhy]

but that's all in the past, jseal.

[jseal]

George Santayana: Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

[wyndhy]

change is the law of life and those who look only to the past or present are certain to miss the future. jfk. ;)

[jseal]

… what makes you think that the government would report the printing of dollars …
rzande1,

Do you honestly think that the Fed could avoid reporting on the U.S. money supply? That somehow it could surreptitiously sneak in an few trillion dollars, and no one would notice?

[jseal]

wyndhy,

As I recall, JFK missed out on a lot of his future.

[wyndhy]

ouch! ooo that's harsh...:D

[jseal]

wyndhy,

While I may be quite off base in re the impact of a persistent trade deficit, there does seem to be a substantial body of generally accepted data which indicates that while it may not be irrelevant, the fact that a nation's current account balance is positive or negative need not be the basis of wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[wyndhy]

jeez, jseal, i wouldn't say i'm wailing. gnashing? even that's pushing it.

[jseal]

wyndhy,

Perhaps I misinterpreted your ealier posts.

http://www.pixies-place.com:81/forums/showpost.php?p=1349167&postcount=24

http://www.pixies-place.com:81/forums/showpost.php?p=1349234&postcount=30

I though them rather emphatic.

[wyndhy]

emphatic means wailing and gnashing?

[osuche]

wyndhy,

Well, as the U.S. balance of payments for trade in Goods and Services has been in deficit for 35 of the last 36 years (http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/historical/gands.txt), I’d suspect that if there was some essential suckiness in running a trade deficit, said suckiness would have shown up by now.



What's really alarming is how out of whack our Current Account is getting on a quarterly basis (and yes, I know we had a slightly less negative uptick in 4Q06 but not enough). After rough parity in 1991, it's been delining (and generally more rapidly over the years). One chief culprit is the real savings rate, which has been negative in the US for some time. We're using foreign money to fund our shopping sprees. :yikes:

High current account deficits = currency devaluation = lower purchasing power for people who already lack savings. Which equals something close to sucking in my book. :D

[jseal]

... High current account deficits = currency devaluation = lower purchasing power. Which equals something close to sucking in my book. :D
osuche,

True, but only if that future comes to pass. I will agree that a change in the U.S. consumer savings rate is in order.

[osuche]

osuche,

True, but only if that future comes to pass.


Is this what the economists call "irrational exuberance"

:rofl:

[jseal]

osuche,

Possibly, possibly. :) I prefer to leave predictions to those who believe they can peer with some degree of confidence into the future. I need only refer you to some of the speculations in the $$Gas$$ (http://www.pixies-place.com:81/forums/showthread.php?t=10341) thread to illustrate how entertaining they may be.

[Steph]

emphatic means wailing and gnashing?


Best. Question. Ever.

[rzande1]

Well did you ever hear what happened to citibank? There are murmurs in the banking community that they nearly went bankrupt and the fed helped them by putting a whole bunch of cash in their reserves. And yes I think they could do that. The public is really too involved in their small little worlds to care about the big issues. Look again back at what this all started with. Global warming. It all comes down to the crappy educational system and lack of social awareness. After all having to acknowledge that there are problems in the world that have to be addressed is stressful.

But yes I just want to say one thing. I think it is great that this conversation is going on. It shows we actually have more on our mind than just sex.

[jseal]

... I think it is great that this conversation is going on ...
rzande1,

I agree with you. When dealing with the world's many intractable problems it will always be possible for reasonable people to disagree.

[WildIrish]

Okay, I can't hold back anymore. I'm sure this one has been posted here in the jokes thread but it was in Playboy again this past month and it just rings true:

What did George W. Bush get on his SAT's?


........ Barbecue Sauce

:roflmao:



Finally...someone who reads the articles. :p

[dm383]

Finally...someone who reads the articles. :p

:huh: You mean there's ARTICLES? With writing and everything? :faint:

Who knew?

:D:D:D

DM