North Korea or Iran

[Jax]

Okay..which one scares you more right now.

[Lilith]

Neither, I fear my own government.

[PantyFanatic]

Lil knows the one that is able to negatively effect me and mine the most.






:wish: :rant: :wish: :rant:

(we do what we can)

[dicksbro]

Luxemborg ... they're being far too quiet for my tastes. :rolleyes2







Really, probably Iran. N. Korea is led by idiots ... but I dont' think they're looking to be martyred ... only to get their way. Iran, on the other hand, also seems to be led by idiots, but idiots who just may just be zealot-enough to really do something that'll result in the middle east turning to toast. :(

[jseal]

Jax,

Between the three, I'd be most wary of North Korea. I can think of no other instances of an urbanized, literate society to suffer mass famine during peacetime. As that is how that government thinks about its citizens, I suspect that the welfare of foreigners is of even less concern to Dear Leader and his coterie.

[Oldfart]

dicksbro,

You have obviously missed the subtle and insidious expansionist policies of the Peoples Republic of the Papal State, formerly known as the Vatican. They have bought three houses in the Via del Lasagne (all outside their borders) in the last five years. No-one can accuse the PRPS of not having long-term objectives. Dan's new book, the Ducati Code, discusses this at some length.

On the topic at hand, no, the other hand, North Korea is most likely to cause catastrophy through nuclear accident (Chernobyl or a weapons test gone wrong) rather than terrirorial aggression. They have no-where to go, having borders with China to the north and South Korea only.

Iran would mire the US even deeper in the Middle East, and that's a load of shi'ite she doesn't need.

Our own society is going down the gurgler at it's own pace, so the fight won't be who gets to topple Western Civilisation, but who gets to pick over it's carcass.

Who do I fear most? Us.

[Scarecrow]

The Romans voted themself bread and circuses and we're not far behind.

[Coastie]

China?

But in regards to your question between the two Iran and N. Korea. I could go either way, the leader of N. Korea has fed his people so much BS and he is scared of them finding out the truth, how far is he willing to go to stop that or what would he do is his glass has came shattering down? He is a madman, but as of right now it's not in his favor to do too much other than some sabre rattling.
Iran is pretty scary in thier own right, but I'm worried a little less by them, thier goverment changes to a certain extent. I don't think the Iranian people follow thier leader with the blind loyalty of the N. Koreans. They as a people are more informed. Some portray the Iraninan leader as one that seeks to bring about Armageddon and that he may actually want to provoke hostilities between the US and Iran or US/Israel and Iran. He may actually want to see more conflict in the middleast and sees himself an agent of god in bringing that about.
Russia and China are "scary" in thier own right, Russia is seeing a resurgence of policies and goverment action not unlike during it's former communist ways. And China it's hard to know if they are as well meaning as they like us to think.
It's a complicated world and everyone (countries) are looking out for themselves for the most part, no nation is so good that they put others before themselves, if the world ever started acting like one people we could accomplish great things. I think people have to change before countries are going to change.

sorry for rambling....

[Oldfart]

Coaster, of course the Governments need to act as one person, but who?

GWB?

Putin?

Jeb Bush ( the next president in the dynasty)?

[Lilith]

Coaster, of course the Governments need to act as one person, but who?

GWB?

Putin?

Jeb Bush ( the next president in the dynasty)?

Hush your mouth! Over my dead body.

[Coastie]

BTW - It's Coastie, not Coaster he is someone else all together :)

I don't know who will be running for the next election, I voted for Busy for the 2nd time, because not so much that I thought Bush would be good in office a 2nd term, but because Kerry in office now would have scared me. Perhaps in another time and place Kerry would make a great president.
I'm generally more of a republican than a democrat depends on the issues, and then that usually plays more in to liberal and conservatism. I think that politics in general are corrupt, we aren't getting the people who would make the best presidents and truely represent us the best. We are getting the people who have the right connections, and have the money, and therefore the ability to be elected.
It's a flawed system.. but that wasn't the topic... :D

I vote for Lilith next election :P

Power to the people! :)

[jseal]

... Power to the people! :)
Coastie,

Good Luck!

[Lilith]

I vote for Lilith next election :P

Power to the people! :)


Power to the Pervs!

[Jax]

Well, I am concerned about both Iran and N. Korea.

Regarding North Korea. I agree very much with the comments that since they don't care that much for their own people, they will care even less for foreigners. I think North Korea lacks the ability to make 'real trouble', primarily because they are isolated by China and South Korea. However, I think their talk is very fierce, and where there is a will...their is a way...

As for Iran. I think Iran has the culture of the masses that is of great concern. However, to some extent they currently scare me less. Not sure why.

I find the situations very troubling in any case.

[scotzoidman]

dicksbro,

You have obviously missed the subtle and insidious expansionist policies of the Peoples Republic of the Papal State, formerly known as the Vatican. They have bought three houses in the Via del Lasagne (all outside their borders) in the last five years. No-one can accuse the PRPS of not having long-term objectives. Dan's new book, the Ducati Code, discusses this at some length.

On the topic at hand, no, the other hand, North Korea is most likely to cause catastrophy through nuclear accident (Chernobyl or a weapons test gone wrong) rather than terrirorial aggression. They have no-where to go, having borders with China to the north and South Korea only.

Iran would mire the US even deeper in the Middle East, and that's a load of shi'ite she doesn't need. :roflmao:


Our own society is going down the gurgler at it's own pace, so the fight won't be who gets to topple Western Civilisation, but who gets to pick over it's carcass.

Who do I fear most? Us.
To quote the late Walt Kelly (& we need him back BTW), "We have met the enemy & he is us."

[rabbit]

Okay..which one scares you more right now.


Yes. And what scares me more is that the UN appears inept yet again...haven't we seen this rotten movie before?

Maybe W jumped the gun in Iraq but at least he takes action. At least we are killing these bad guys in Iraq instead of having to fight them in our towns and neighborhoods with them killing us in our towns just like they did to those poor people in India. Makes me want to cry.

The UN does nothing.

[Satyriasis]

Even Iraq posed a bigger threat than North Korea. And Iraq didn't even pose that much of a threat except an economic one, North Korea doesn't even pose that.

If the G8 countries and Asia were seriously worried about military security threats they would be trying to force India and Pakistan, who are known to have nuclear weapons into signing the Non-Proliferation Treaty and disarming their weapons. Instead they have been forking over resources and money to both governments ... probably the most unstable region in the world outside of Israel and Somalia.

This North Korea nonsense is just a distraction.

[jseal]

Satyriasis,

Iraq did not possess nuclear weapons. North Korea does. Fortunately, we need not rely only on American sources for this information.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB87/

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/nuke/index.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2340405.stm

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19689419-601,00.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/northkorea/

[Coastie]

North Korea might be apt to supply thier missle technologies with people we don't want having it, which is already the case to a certain extent, and them having recieved most of thier tech via Russia and/or China (whose technology is also mostly imported, but they are getting rather adept and producing thier own materials, thier economic boom, and industrial revolution doesn't just have them turning out cheap trinkets for sale at walmart but tech of all sorts). But back to the main point, North Korea more than likely has nuclear weapons (at least a few, possibly more the US intelligence services have been "suprised" alot latley), North Korea have missle systems that can be placed in shipping containers, said missle systems can be deployed while still on a vessel underway, said containers are hard virtually undetectable. It wouldn't be that hard for someone to use a missle with a shorter range with a nuclear warhead or dirty bomb or chemical/bio and fire from a vessel closer to shore, circumventing the tech needed to make multi-stage ICBM's. North Korea isn't the only country suspected of this, Iran is likely pursuing something of these sorts.

And to previous poster, I believe regardless of WMD (and they have found some in Iraq, albeit rather old and probally no longer serviceable condition) that someone should have gone in to Iraq and taken Saddam out, it should have happened in the first gulf war, to a certain extent alot of the animosity we have now is from us "failing" Iraqi's the first time. Some of the sought to overthrow the goverment when we invaded then, but then we pulled out and they were handled mercilessly and we left them for dead.

[Coastie]

They probally did not in fact possess nuclear weapons, but they were probally without a doubting working towards that ends. They did have chemical weapons, which they had used on thier own people and Iran in the past.
FAS is a wonderful site, I love browsing around on there :)


Satyriasis,

Iraq did not possess nuclear weapons. North Korea does. Fortunately, we need not rely only on American sources for this information.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB87/

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/nuke/index.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2340405.stm

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19689419-601,00.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/northkorea/

[Sharni]

North Korea worries me more than Iraq

[wrestlemark]

thanks..................north korea worries me more than iran because they are already in the iraq war causing much of the mess we are in ...............north korea WILL lauch all of its missles etc on south korea and japan as soon as it is hit killing tens of thousands (ALONG WITH OUR TROOPS IN THE DMZ) ...........then WHO EVER hits them has china to deal with too..........lets hope KIM JUNG ILLLLL is as crazy as he seems and shoots first then china can't be upset

[Satyriasis]

Satyriasis,

Iraq did not possess nuclear weapons. North Korea does. Fortunately, we need not rely only on American sources for this information.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB87/

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/dprk/nuke/index.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2340405.stm

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19689419-601,00.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/northkorea/

So?

Do you honestly think America will go to war with North Korea?

And, do you honestly think North Korea will go to war with America?

The answer should be no, as this is all just to distract from the mess left in Afghanistan and Iraq. Now Iran and North Korea want to attack America's freedom?

It's doodoo, and people fall for it.

There won't be a war with North Korea, for a start they have 1.2 million soldiers so an invasion is simply out of the question. If America go on a bombing campaign, you're gonna isolate yourselves further from the rest of the world.

You know who else has nuclear weapons? Israel. Hell, they've had nuclear weapons since 1968, but I don't hear anybody calling for them to be disarmed? I don't hear anybody calling for India and Pakistan to be disarmed, do you?

The only country in the history of the world to use a nuclear weapon is America, and I think everybody knows what happened.

This is all a joke; a distraction.

Jeez, wake up.

[Sharni]

Personally i still support Bush's decision to invade Iraq

And as for North Korea....they are dangerous...a nuclear weapon just poised waiting for an opportunity to land

And i'm sure America is not the only country concerned about NK

[Coastie]

So?

Do you honestly think America will go to war with North Korea?

And, do you honestly think North Korea will go to war with America?

The answer should be no, as this is all just to distract from the mess left in Afghanistan and Iraq. Now Iran and North Korea want to attack America's freedom?

It's doodoo, and people fall for it.

There won't be a war with North Korea, for a start they have 1.2 million soldiers so an invasion is simply out of the question. If America go on a bombing campaign, you're gonna isolate yourselves further from the rest of the world.

You know who else has nuclear weapons? Israel. Hell, they've had nuclear weapons since 1968, but I don't hear anybody calling for them to be disarmed? I don't hear anybody calling for India and Pakistan to be disarmed, do you?

The only country in the history of the world to use a nuclear weapon is America, and I think everybody knows what happened.

This is all a joke; a distraction.

Jeez, wake up.

So.... who is making all these distractions? You don't think that NK really launched 7 missles and has nuclear missles? The US is using it as a distraction and that's why there are 6 party talks? Sure the North Korea has a 1.2 Million army, and how many of them actually have weapons? If there were a war Yes much of north and south korea would be in ruins they both have large amounts of artillery already aimed in on targets. Both military and cilvian targets. The best resolution for North Korea would be thier leader stepping down (he has his people convinced he is a demi-god, and the son of god he has his people brainwashed and he is rattling sabers with the world he is afraid his people will find out the truth, he routinely has people killed for small violations).
I don't think China would necessarly step in to a conflict, they are a key economic ally of North Korea, but I don't think they would think it in thier best intrest enter in a direct conflict with the US .... yet. It may not be that long before China's military might it equal to or surpasses that of the US, probally 10-20 years top. They are fighting a economic war now, and using thier growth to fuel thier military.

"The only country in the history of the world to use a nuclear weapon is America, and I think everybody knows what happened."

True or False, more people would have died had the US not bombed Japan. If Japan hadn't surrendered unconditionally you would have seen Operation Coronet, a planned amphibous assault to revial that of the one in europe. The casualities would have been 100's of thousands of troops, and possible millions of civilians.


"This is all a joke; a distraction. "

What exactly is the distraction? What is the joke?

For both Iran and North Korea you see more unity between countries in thier pressing for a resolution. W is taking a more diplomatic approach for once, maybe things can be resolved peacefully, who wouldn't prefer that?

Also on a side note... there are hardly any US military personnel stationed near the DMZ. Most of the US presence is farther south in the country, 2ID is probally the closest but that don't have the role they had a one point, they are still probally the quick reaction force aka speed bump.

[Coastie]

Personally i still support Bush's decision to invade Iraq

And as for North Korea....they are dangerous...a nuclear weapon just poised waiting for an opportunity to land

And i'm sure America is not the only country concerned about NK

I believe that Japan is probally even more so concerned at this point, they have been the ones pushing the hardest for a strict resolution against NK. Not saying that isn't what US foreign policy would like as well, but the US isn't necessarly the driving force on this occasion.

[Sharni]

I wont be 'just' America going to war if it came to that...they have more than the US worried

As for North Korea going to war...you bet ya butt i think they would...

And let me say i'm fully awake *LOL*

[jbh3]

Iran...nobody will jump on the N.Korean bandwagon here or in Europe.....or anywhere for that matter.

[jseal]

Satyriasis,

I think it more likely that North Korea will attack than be attacked. That is, after all, what happened on June 25,1950 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/25/newsid_2699000/2699641.stm). That aggression, initiated by North Korea (http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/0627.html#article), took three years and some two million lives before the fighting stopped.

I get the impression that you think otherwise. Why?

[Sharni]

Iran...nobody will jump on the N.Korean bandwagon here or in Europe.....or anywhere for that matter.
N.Korean bandwagon???

[Coastie]

N.Korean bandwagon???

My thoughts exactly, people want to make everything out like there is some hidden agenda. What is there to dispute about North Korea?

[jbh3]

My point is this.
As the war in Iraq escalated...so did terrorist activity in support of Iraq in "other" countries.
I don't have a problem with Iran or N. Korea....I just answered the question at hand.
Don't read between the lines and don't put words in my mouth

[Sharni]

I wasnt...i just didnt understand what you meant

As i live in one of the 'other' countries...let me say that i still support Bush's decision...Terrorism is a world problem not just Americas.....and if NK decide to start something (and their attitude so far makes me think they will)...i'll have a big problem with them too

[Coastie]

My argument would be that people have already jumped on the North Korea "Bang Wagon". I wasn't putting words in your mouth either, was talking in general. If I had meant to put words in your mouth I'd have asked you directly if that is what I meant :D

[jbh3]

No problem...Sharni...Coastie

Politics turns friends into enemies
That concludes my Political contribution for July.
Now back to the T&A

[Sharni]

*LOL*...Debating an issue is great...as long as we all stay polite then its all good :)

[Satyriasis]

So.... who is making all these distractions? You don't think that NK really launched 7 missles and has nuclear missles? The US is using it as a distraction and that's why there are 6 party talks? Sure the North Korea has a 1.2 Million army, and how many of them actually have weapons? If there were a war Yes much of north and south korea would be in ruins they both have large amounts of artillery already aimed in on targets. Both military and cilvian targets. The best resolution for North Korea would be thier leader stepping down (he has his people convinced he is a demi-god, and the son of god he has his people brainwashed and he is rattling sabers with the world he is afraid his people will find out the truth, he routinely has people killed for small violations).

The American government is making these distractions. Look at the mess made in Afghanistan and Iraq. Bush and Blair are being criticized like there's no tomorow, for what is happening there. Soldiers dying everyday, the rape of the 15-year old Iraqi girl by those soldiers who were supposed to be there to help these people. What better way to deflect attention from that by telling everybody a madman in East Asia has a nuclear weapon he wants to use?

"The only country in the history of the world to use a nuclear weapon is America, and I think everybody knows what happened."

True or False, more people would have died had the US not bombed Japan. If Japan hadn't surrendered unconditionally you would have seen Operation Coronet, a planned amphibous assault to revial that of the one in europe. The casualities would have been 100's of thousands of troops, and possible millions of civilians.

Is that the case now? North Korea will not attack America; America will not attack North Korea. If America were so concerned about countries with nuclear weapons then North Korea, Pakistan, India and Israel would be top of the list. Not countries like Afghanistan, Iraq etc.


"This is all a joke; a distraction. "

What exactly is the distraction? What is the joke?

See my first paragraph. The joke is people falling for it, you really think North Korea pose a threat? I suppose you think Osama bin Laden is a bad man, too?

Go to Google (http://www.Google.com) and type 'Tim Osman' in the address bar ... what do you see?

You see where I'm coming from, now?

[Satyriasis]

Satyriasis,

I think it more likely that North Korea will attack than be attacked. That is, after all, what happened on June 25,1950 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/25/newsid_2699000/2699641.stm). That aggression, initiated by North Korea (http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/0627.html#article), took three years and some two million lives before the fighting stopped.

I get the impression that you think otherwise. Why?

North Korea won't attack.

They. Do. Not. Pose. A. Threat. To. The. Western. World.

The 'International Community' would not stand for a pre-emptive nuclear strike and it would effectively alienate America from the rest of the world.. As powerful as the US currently is, they rely heavily on the global economy and support for 'projects' throughout the world from other countries..

I doubt seriously Jong Il has any real thoughts of using the nukes anyway.. It's just a show of strenght to the rest of the world, whether they are impressed or not. America would be idiots to be suckered into doing something stupid because of a nuclear test.

[Sharni]

North Korea is unstable as far as i'm concerned

...they are aggressive in their attitude and it rightly has people worried...and IMHO we'd be idiots not to be

[jseal]

Satyriasis,

The question Jax asked above was which one of the two nations, Iran or North Korea, was more worrisome, not if North Korea would invade South Korea (or any other country).

As the governments of both countries have behaved in ways which might worry reasonable people, it seems to be a fair question.

For example, Iranian President Ahmadinejad has described the Holocaust as "a myth (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,251-1930053,00.html)". There are many people – including me - who consider comments denying well documented history to indicate an adherence to ideals which, coming from someone who would be in a position to initiate war, to be somewhat worrisome.

In 1988 (http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/9808/31/nkorea.missle.03/) The North Korean government launched a two-stage ballistic missile over Japan. The act is reminiscent of a warship firing its cannon across the bows of another vessel; stop or be destroyed. There are many people – the Japanese (among others) come to mind here - who consider behavior of this nature somewhat worrisome.

Of these two worrisome countries, North Korea worries me more as it has a documented past of bellicose behavior, while Iran has engaged in warfare only when attacked.

While your unusual punctuation indicates to me an emphatic belief in the validity of your vision of the future, there are many people - the sons and the daughters of the American soldiers, sailors, and airmen who were killed (http://www.koreanwar.org/html/korean_war_databases.html) by North Koreans during the Korean War might be examples – who consider the future to be less clear or obvious. For those people of the West, as well as the hundreds of millions of Asians who live sufficiently close to the launch sites of the Taepodong-2 missile (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2564241.stm) (6,000 km) to be potential targets, I’m sure you can understand why they may be less convinced of the benign intentions of Kim Jong-il (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1907197.stm) et al.

Excuse me for responding to the question you asked Coastie above, but I do think that someone who plans, finances, and praises the murder of thousands of people is a bad man. So, yes, I do – as do many people – think that Osama bin Laden is a bad man.

[Coastie]

The American government is making these distractions. Look at the mess made in Afghanistan and Iraq. Bush and Blair are being criticized like there's no tomorow, for what is happening there. Soldiers dying everyday, the rape of the 15-year old Iraqi girl by those soldiers who were supposed to be there to help these people. What better way to deflect attention from that by telling everybody a madman in East Asia has a nuclear weapon he wants to use?

So truth is deflection? There can only be one real concern at one time? I thought we could multitask sorry :)


"The only country in the history of the world to use a nuclear weapon is America, and I think everybody knows what happened."



Is that the case now? North Korea will not attack America; America will not attack North Korea. If America were so concerned about countries with nuclear weapons then North Korea, Pakistan, India and Israel would be top of the list. Not countries like Afghanistan, Iraq etc.

You are sure North Korea wouldn't attack, thier leader is a mad man, a mad man with nukes. That is what makes N. Korea different than Pakistan, India, and Israel.


"This is all a joke; a distraction. "



See my first paragraph. The joke is people falling for it, you really think North Korea pose a threat? I suppose you think Osama bin Laden is a bad man, too?

Go to Google (http://www.Google.com) and type 'Tim Osman' in the address bar ... what do you see?

You see where I'm coming from, now?

Sorry, but not a single one of the results come back from a legitimate site that offers any substantial evidence? Most of them were cut and paste the exact same article and half of them the websites were named "conspiracy" something.

[Coastie]

Intresting article, read some of the comments, they are from people from conservative to extreme on both sides.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/07/14/do1401.xml

[Winston77]

I worry more about the Yankees catching the Red Sox and knocking them out of the playoffs, which will mean no chance of them winning the world series! :D

:jacques:

[Lilith]

It's all about priorities isn't it Winston? ;)

[scotzoidman]

Like they say, Politics is serious, but Baseball is important.

[jseal]

scotzoidman,

Too true! For Orioles fans, it is important to not take them too seriously. :(

[rabbit]

I suppose you think Osama bin Laden is a bad man, too?



Please tell us why you think Osama Bin Laden is a good man...

[jseal]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/5405440.stm