Transitions – The Birthplace of Gospel Music

[jseal]

The Pilgrim Baptist Church in Chicago, the church where Gospel Music started back in the 1930s, burnt down on Friday night. Mahalia Jackson and the Edwin Hawkins Singers - among others - got their start there.

Interestingly, it was originally built as Kehilath Anshe Ma'ariv synagogue, only housing the Baptist Church since 1922.

[Lilith]

define Gospel Music please

[jseal]

Lilith,

Gospel Music is often considered the fusion of hymns with blues. Thomas Dorsey, the music director of the Pilgrim Baptist Church is commonly associated with it. Click here (http://www.island.net/~blues/gospel.htm), here (http://www.kusp.org/playlists/crosscurrents/history.html), or perhaps here (http://afgen.com/gospel1.html) for additional reading.

[Lilith]

Hmmm I would argue that slaves who were forced into Christianity by their owners were singing gospel many years before that church came to be. I'd say plantations were the birthplace of gospel music.

[Booger]

I woud have to agree with Lilith here even your first link states that "By a further arbitrary use of the term, however, Gospel music is considered to have begun in the United States, sometimes in the 19th century, first appearing in print in 1874 with the publication of Gospel Songs by Philip Bliss."

[jseal]

Lilith,

Well, you did ask.

I gave what I and others consider to be a substantial answer, and provided references if you were interested. If you tend to an different point of view, more power to you.

[Lilith]

There are so many things that slaves contributed to Americana but often those things were not officially sanctioned til they began to appear in the North where they became recognized by the whites such as the Quakers who were supporting the movement from blacks in the rural south to northern communities.

Jseal African American History is my very favorite thing. In fact,at some point I would love to teach it.

[jseal]

Lilith,

The Quakers were not alone.

[Lilith]

No and I did not suggest they were. But they are a prominent religious group who help blacks move north.

[Lilith]

BTW it's terrible sad about the church burning. What I find interesting is that it connects the African American community and the Jewish community which has at times experienced strained relations.

[BIBI]

The church played a major role in the development of gospel music....

It was the place where a base was set to promote it, where it gained a wider audience and many notable gospel singers propelled from. I believe the term was adopted as an affectionate one more than factual in order to give gospel music a home. Such is the same for country music and The Grand Old Opry.

[Lilith]

Very true. I just feel that often the south in it's shame over it's participation in slavery or racism often avoids acknowledging itself as the place where many of the great contributions made by those slaves occurred. I am sure my feelings are influenced by having been rasied in rural places where many African American communities and White communities were still completely segregated.

[jseal]

Lilith,

Your position in re the origins of Gospel Music, in contrast to negro spirituals which predate Gospel and are closely associated with American slavery, is intriguing. When it is convenient, would you provide a few references for it? I’d like to see where this goes.

Here are a few more references for your consideration, should you be interested in considering a 20th century genesis for this art form.

On NPR

A History of Gospel Music (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4233793)

Thomas Dorsey, the Father of Gospel Music (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1357001)


Gospel from Spiritual

http://www.negrospirituals.com/

http://wv.essortment.com/gospelmusichis_rutg.htm

[Lilith]

My position is that negro spirituals begat gospel music. I have no references to cite as I don't hunt articles to prove my personal feelings. My feelings are good enough to stand alone. They don't need back up. From all that I have read, experienced, and been taught it is my feeling that gospel is an extension of the music that is commonly referred to as spirituals. Time being what most consider the separator of the two. It's quite possible I have lived in places where the two are still one.

[Steph]

From all that I have read, experienced, and been taught it is my feeling that gospel is an extension of the music that is commonly referred to as spirituals.

I don't have links to prove the case, either, but it's so obviously the case. I will say I studied Musicology as part of my graduate degree & studied music in Canada & touched upon the Underground Railroad's influence on Canadian music.

When slaves were in the plantation, their harmonic pleas to God were called spirituals. When they went to Church, it became Gospel. An outlet for their woes. An outlet for their faith.

[Lilith]

One of the things that intrigues me the most was how work songs then spirituals also became tools to communicate in code. I was fascinated the first time I was shown/played an example. Jseal posted a link to a website that has so many song lyrics. Great link. http://www.negrospirituals.com/news-song/index.htm

[jseal]

Lilith,

I certainly wouldn't want to challenge any of your personal beliefs. Perhaps I misinterpreted your assertion that plantations were the birthplace of gospel music.

I have found that, on occasion, I, like many, have changed my opinions or beliefs when presented with new information. Sometimes it seems like the right thing to do, and sometimes not.

[Steph]

Perhaps I misinterpreted your assertion that plantations were the birthplace of gospel music.

How so?

[Lilith]

I'm not here to change your mind, opinion or beliefs. It's not at all important to me that you think like me on any particular subject or idea. Diversity works for me. I was just stating mine. I don't feel the need to persuade anyone. I just have an unusual affection for African American History. <~~~~~That being said, I also would agree with a comment from actor Morgan Freeman (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10482634/) recently. He spoke out that it's not African American History, it's American History and certainly can not be contained (or in my view taught) to one month a year.

[jseal]

Lilith,

While there have been, on occasion, subjects on which we may possibly hold different opinions, the subject of “Black History Month” (February I believe it is) would seem to be one on which I assume I am in agreement with you.

In all sincerity, what is up with that?

Selecting a particular month for “Black” or “African American” history month – how can the allusion to segregation, and it’s attendant ills, be possibly overlooked? How, in this day and age could this have happened, or be institutionalized? When the children were still here, during the month of February the local television stations would dutifully trot out their 20 second sound bite children essays about “African American Heroes”, or saints, athletes, politicians, etc. etc. etc.

I really don’t know the history about this, if you’ll excuse me, absurdity, but who could possibly argue with your point that it can not be contained to one month a year? The whole approach seems to be a reversion to some bizarre Jim Crow esthetics. I will admit to having little involvement in public education systems, but I would have thought that the history African American experience would have been fully integrated into the academic curriculum by the 21st century.

Sorry for the rant, I don’t usually go off like this, but I do have your attention (for one reason or another), and you are a teacher (who I’m assuming has some information about this), and it is a subject (Black History Month) I’ve always thought should be as Mr. Freeman, and no doubt many, many others, consider as “American” as G.W. & the Cherry Tree or F.D.R & the charge up San Juan Hill.

It may be that the details are dull, if not actually devilish, but I’d like to learn some about this, and your post above seemed as good an excuse as I’ll ever get to ask these questions.

[Lion]

I feel like I'm at a debate tournament. :eek:

[Steph]

In all sincerity, what is up with that?

Or, as some might say:

F'real, whazzup wi' dat?

[PantyFanatic]

Stating some facts and letting others scurry around them is not a debate Lion. ;)

[scotzoidman]

The church played a major role in the development of gospel music....

It was the place where a base was set to promote it, where it gained a wider audience and many notable gospel singers propelled from. I believe the term was adopted as an affectionate one more than factual in order to give gospel music a home. Such is the same for country music and The Grand Old Opry .
I don't intend to hijack the thread, just adding what I think may be an interesting sidebar, since BIBI brought it up...the Ryman Auditorium, often identified as the Mother Church of Country Music, as it was the longtime home of the Grand Ole Opry, also started out a church facility...Capt. Ryman financed the building of a tabernacle as way of paying up a debt he felt he owed to God...
Actually, I've seen it as fairly common for one religious group to move out of a building to be replaced by another...

[jseal]

I don't have links to prove the case, either, but it's so obviously the case. I will say I studied Musicology as part of my graduate degree & studied music in Canada & touched upon the Underground Railroad's influence on Canadian music ...
Steph,

There was a time when it was obvious that the Earth was at the center of the universe.
. . . it was obvious that the Earth was flat.
. . . it was obvious that the ether pervaded the universe.
. . . it was obvious that men were superior to women.
. . . it was obvious that Negroes were inferior to Caucasians.

Most people no longer hold those truths to be self evident.


There are those who assert that their arguments are correct based on authority. There are those who assert that their arguments are correct based on corroborating evidence.

By and large, as a rule of thumb, for the most part, I am a member of the second group. That is why I attempt to provide any who are interested something more than “because I said so, that’s why” when I advance an idea in an open forum. It has been my experience that reasonable people will, if presented with a coherent body of evidence in support of a proposition, be persuaded that there is merit in the proposition.

Granted, that does not always happen, but it does so frequently enough that it is my default approach to argument. Of course, different people have different approaches to discourse.

[Lilith]

There was a time when it was obvious that the Earth was at the center of the universe.
. . . it was obvious that the Earth was flat.
. . . it was obvious that the ether pervaded the universe.
. . . it was obvious that men were superior to women.
. . . it was obvious that Negroes were inferior to Caucasians.

Most people no longer hold those truths to be self evident.


WTF does this have to do with me asserting that I feel that plantations were the birthplace of gospel music. Because I won't debate with you you feel the need to align my feelings/views with those obviously misguided ideas?

JSeal, coherent evidence is in the eye of the beholder. People are able to dig up whatever they need to support their stance on a wide variety of topics, especially on the internet. Frankly it often makes people look like they have no idea/confidence what their personal views are on an issue and that they need someone with more clout to back them up. Often you seem to find the need to debate someone's view here and you want them to prove their point. It's aggressive and annoying to people like me who are in Gen Chat to do just that, chat. When I am at a bar with friends, hanging out, and I state my personal view, I am not asked to whip out references. I will never whip them out here either. As for your authority quip, I absolutely have the authority needed to express my personal views as just that, too bad others here often fear having their personal ideas challenged and don't speak up.

[BIBI]

Did Gospel music originate in Scotland
Black America's musical links to Scotland
BEN MCCONVILLE

ON THE face of it jazz legend Dizzy Gillespie would seem a little out of place on a website devoted to Scottish heritage. With his trademark bent trumpet, he was the epitome of a cool musician at home on stage with 20th century giants of music like Louis Armstrong and Charlie Mingus.

But look at those surnames. Gillespie, Armstrong and Mingus (or Menzies) - all Scots monikers that were probably given to their ancestors by slave masters. It was common for owners to impose the family name on the slaves.


The findings by Willie Ruff has both struck a raw nerve and allowed African-Americans to better understand their heritage
Picture: Courtesy eyeline media
Even though people were bought and sold as chattels, there was a bizarre notion that this forced labour was somehow "family". But family they became, as they shared the same space and interbred, though mainly by rape. In this most shameful episode in our history white owners also expected their slaves to worship with them, to take on their religious beliefs and customs.

Gillespie often regaled his friends with stories of how the Scots had influenced the blacks in his home state of Alabama. He spoke to his long-time collaborator, Willie Ruff, a bassist and French horn player, about how his parents told of the black slaves who spoke Gaelic, the tongue of their masters.

Ruff - a professor of music at Yale University, a musicologist and jazz man who played with Duke Ellington and Miles Davis - was struck by the words of Gillespie, and some years after the trumpeter's death set out to investigate connections between the Scots and the blacks of the southern US.

"For Dizzy, there was no doubt about the connections. He'd talk about the Gaelic speaking blacks and spoke of his love for Scotland. He'd often tell me to get over to Scotland because the people were so friendly and the love of the music so warm," says Ruff.

A chance visit to a black Baptist church in Alabama led Ruff to discover that some congregations were still "lining out" in the Deep South. This is a call and response form of worship where a precentor sings the first line of a psalm and the congregation follows.

Listen to Audio
Hear a sample of precenting the line from members of a Western Isles church
Courtesy: eyeline media
Ruff had thought that this ancient form of worship, which predated the Negro spiritual, had died out. But then he discovered that the practise was still going strong among white, Gaelic speaking congregations in the Western Isles. His investigations also took him to a white congregation in Kentucky.

"This is the only show in town. I've found three congregations who still line out as their sole form of worship," Ruff says. "But what it proves is there is cultural transference. When I spoke to black congregations about lining out they said it came from the slave days. But once they heard whites - both American and Scots - it became clear it was more complicated than that.

"While black culture and worship does come from Africa, there were elements that were imposed by the whites, but they took this and 'blackened' it."

Lining out - or "precenting the line" - had been commonplace throughout Europe in the 16th, 17th and 18th century. At a time of low literacy rates and high costs of prayer books it had become an easy way to teach and distribute the word of God.

The English brought precenting the line to the Highlands and Islands of Scotland. The Highlanders, along with Puritans and Baptists, also took it to the New World, and it was widely practised by the frontiersmen, planters and adventurers who carved out what is the modern US. Eventually it fizzled out in most areas, but the tradition had been kept alive in the remote communities of the Western Isles, as it had in the rural areas of the Deep South.


For Americans in the Deep South, hearing for the first time the sounds of Scottish Highlanders precenting the line can be quite emotional

Ruff discovered a church in Alabama where blacks worshipped in Gaelic as late as 1918, giving a clue to the extent to which the Gaels spread their culture - from North Carolina to Alabama, Georgia and Mississippi - as they prospered on the back of slavery and moved to bigger and better plantations. It was perhaps a refusal to move with the times and the remoteness of the communities which has ensured the survival of precenting the line.

While the cultural transmittance between the African slaves and their white masters is well documented, this story is always going to be a raw nerve for some. For others, like Ruff, it is an opportunity for acknowledgement and reconciliation. He believes that traces of the white influence on black music exist to this day and that the "DNA" of lining out the psalms permeates modern forms of music.

At a symposium at Yale in May, the professor brought together congregations from Back Free Church on the Isle of Lewis and the Indian Bottom Old Regular Baptists, a white congregation from south-eastern Kentucky alongside the Sipsey River Primitive Baptist Association, a black congregation from Eutaw, Alabama.


Ruff believes there is much more work to be done in finding out about the fusion of black and Gaelic culture. For him the symposium was merely the end of the beginning of his search.

"Because of slavery, the African-American has never properly been able to explore his or her roots.

"But," Ruff adds, "what this work does is open new avenues. We clearly have European roots too. While it may not be satisfactory and it may not be comfortable, it is what it is. It's in our names, it's in our music, it's in our blood."

A DVD that explores the relationship between Gaelic psalm singing and African-American gospel music, Siubhal nan Salm - The Journey of the Psalms, is available through eyeline media and Gaelic Psalm Singing.

This article: http://heritage.scotsman.com/traditions.cfm?id=609532005

Last updated: 06-Jun-05 13:38 GMT ;)

[Booger]

There are those who assert that their arguments are correct based on authority. There are those who assert that their arguments are correct based on corroborating evidence.

By and large, as a rule of thumb, for the most part, I am a member of the second group. That is why I attempt to provide any who are interested something more than “because I said so, that’s why” when I advance an idea in an open forum. It has been my experience that reasonable people will, if presented with a coherent body of evidence in support of a proposition, be persuaded that there is merit in the proposition.

Granted, that does not always happen, but it does so frequently enough that it is my default approach to argument. Of course, different people have different approaches to discourse.

The only problem I see here with your line of thought, Jseal is that not one link you posted as your coherent body of evidence suport you statment that siad church was the birth place of gospel music.

[Lilith]

Interesting. So many ideas. I think the underlying idea for me is how much cultures influence one another. I wonder with today's technology if this influence will increase or decrease.

[BIBI]

It kinda goes to the belief that the roots of gospel began at the plantations.

[jseal]

Lilith,

You retain you delightful unpredictability! I had anticipated that Steph would respond to the post I addressed to her, and that you would respond to the post I addressed to you – and you mixed it all up! :)

As to my post to Steph; she asserted that a proposition was obvious. I challenged the assertion by identifying several propositions which were are one time or another, taken for granted, but are no longer. As the evidence supporting one’s notions of what is obvious changes, so should one’s notions of what is obvious. That seems to be a sensible approach to me.

As to what my unease with arguments from authority has to do with your feelings that that plantations were the birthplace of gospel music – nothing whatever. Steph’s assertion that X is obvious without substantiation is what I disagreed with. I went to some effort to exclude the subject about which she and I disagreed from my post.

I am somewhat surprised that my suggestion that the Pilgrim Baptist Church has a good claim to be the location where “Gospel Music” originated in the 1930s has been met with quite such belligerent disagreement. I had thought it a relatively innocuous comment.

I also think it is fair to suggest that those who question assertions made by others implicitly validate the notion of questioning authority. If it is reasonable for one to question the claims made by another, surely it is reasonable to provide supporting evidence and/or arguments? Is not that what conversation is about – the communication of ideas? Further, if you’ll agree that it is reasonable for one individual in conversation to question the propositions made by the other, wouldn’t you also agree that the second might be entitled to similar expectations?

You suggested that that the plantations were the birthplace of gospel music as an alternative to Chicago in the 1930s. This had all the ingredients of Thesis-Antithesis-Synthesis. So far so good and I tried to support my opinion by referring to what some others have had to say about the subject. But when I asked for additional information, you seemed hurt or offended, as if I was not entitled to request more of what you had to say to help me understand why you expressed your opinion.

Perhaps we have different ideas about the nature and value of conversation.

[Lilith]

We do indeed. What you describe is debate in my eyes. Conversation, to me, is what I have had in this thread with people like BIBI. A free flowing exchange of ideas with no expectations as to the credentials or assimilation or agreement associated with those ideas. I believe the difference lies in what you expect from the exchange with others. I expect to listen to diverse views and see them as just that, views. You continuously push people to feel as if they must somehow defend themselves. You, in my opinion, actually stifle conversation when you put requirements on others. You restrict the free flow of ideas by requiring proof, validation, references, credentials. In your own words "I challenged her...", that's not conversation to me.I expect to be able to state my views here and people to view them as just that my views. I stated clearly that from what I have learned and my own experience gospel began on plantations. You can not debate that. If you want a debate find a debate forum.

[jseal]

Lilith,

Well, at least we agree that we disagree! :)

I do think that such notions of conversation are unfortunately limiting. Still, unto each his or her own.

I guess then that it is OK for me to say that the Pilgrim Baptist Church in Chicago was the church where Gospel Music got it's start?

[Lilith]

It is perfectly OK for you to say anything you want about that church. And it's perfectly OK for me to think differently. Just because I disagreed with you doesn't mean that you can't. THAT is the difference, one of many I am sure, between you and me. I have the ability to think something different and still accept that you may view it otherwise...and I don't expect you to change your mind or prove to me why you think differently. Just knowing you view it differently is good enough.

[PantyFanatic]

After following this thread, I finally removed the ONE name I have blocked. It wasn’t surprising to read the voids.
ie.
…I had anticipated that Steph would respond to the post I addressed to her,…
...As to my post to Steph; she asserted that a proposition was obvious. I challenged the assertion.....................................................
A post with another prospective doesn’t seem be an adequate response. There seems to be a mission to antagonize until a BLUNT response states that somebody doesn’t give a shit about another’s arrogant and pompous views. The confusing part comes when the fight that was picked starts, the pickers first shield becomes the skirt of the cop on duty who's primary duty is to stop fights.

When somebody stirs the pop, they should have the taste for the soup and hold onto the spoon. :mad:





Excuse me now. I have work to do again to my ignore list. :rolleyes:

[jseal]

PantyFanatic,

Good for you!

[BIBI]

Steph's out preaching the gospel today for our NDP party.....grrrr elections!!!;)

[Scarecrow]

I wonder with today's technology if this influence will increase or decrease.


The world will become one homogenized pile of PC.

[Steph]

Steph's out preaching the gospel today for our NDP party.....grrrr elections!!!;)

Alleluia! I preached to many! :D

[sodaklostsoul]

Did you take your soap box Steph?

[jseal]

Lilith,

You may be onto something here. We both agree that we can disagree. One issue where we might disagree is if disagreement need be a terminus. I do feel that point need not end a conversation, but can be the starting point from which we can learn from the other. Mind you, there is no requirement that we do so, only that we can if both contribute.

[WildIrish]

I will never whip them out here either.



:(







:mad: Now look what you did! :mad:

[WildIrish]

The Pilgrim Baptist Church...



Is that over by the O'Leary place? :confused:

[Lilith]

The Pilgrim Baptist Church...



Is that over by the O'Leary place? :confused:

not anymore :o















:D * hands WI the paddle and bends over :D

[jseal]

WildIrish,

WAS over by the O'Leary place. It was pretty much totaled…

Fire Destroys Landmark Chicago Church
By KAREN HAWKINS, Associated Press Writer
Sat Jan 7, 2:39 PM ET


CHICAGO - The architecture was majestic, the gospel choir was inspiring and services at the Pilgrim Baptist Church were so popular that worshippers in the 1930s and '40s had to show up an hour early to find a seat.

On Friday, the 115-year-old church, an integral part of the development of gospel music, was destroyed by a fire so intense that its flames and smoke could be seen from miles away. The fire gutted the church and collapsed its roof and steeple. The cause wasn't known.

"It was a landmark church. God, it was just so beautiful," said Lena McLin, who was baptized at Pilgrim as a 12-year-old in the early 1940s. "It was very spiritual — you felt you were meeting the Lord there."

McLin's uncle was Thomas A. Dorsey — considered the father of gospel music — and Pilgrim was where he perfected his cross of the raw soulfulness of the blues with the sacred music of his youth. His all-time greatest hit, "Take My Hand, Precious Lord," was popularized by Mahalia Jackson and became a favorite of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.

He was Pilgrim's music director from 1932 until the late 1970s. The church was designated a Chicago landmark in 1981.

Over the decades, the gospel stars who performed at Pilgrim included Jackson, Sallie Martin, James Cleveland and the Edwin Hawkins Singers. The funeral service for early 20th century boxing champion Jack Johnson was held at the church.

The congregation recently numbered about 300, but in its heyday in the 1940s it had about 10,000 members, said the Rev. Hycel B. Taylor, the church's former pastor.

It had been "the quintessential black megachurch," he said.

The church was a place where the famous architects Louis Sullivan and Dankmar Adler experimented with the features that made them famous — such as vaulted ceilings, amazing acoustics and ornamental designs, such as the terra cotta panels with intricate foliage designs, said Ned Cramer, curator of the Chicago Architecture Foundation.

It was built as a synagogue between 1890 and 1891, but it has housed the Pilgrim congregation since 1922. The surrounding Bronzeville neighborhood was a vibrant hub for blacks during the first half of the 20th century.

"It's like hearing a close relative has died or a good friend. It's heartbreaking," said Cramer.

Though no one was injured in the blaze, it is feared the church's archives — including old photographs and Dorsey's original sheet music — were destroyed.

McLin said she's hopeful that Dorsey's wife might have sent some of those mementoes to Fisk University, where the family choose to deposit some of Dorsey's belongings. But she is sure a huge painting of her uncle — whom she lived with as a child — was destroyed.

Still, she said, she'll never forget the feeling of being in that church, surrounded by thousands of worshippers packed on the floor and the balcony, listening to gospel music.

"The spirit was just all over the place," she said.

Associated Press Writer Anna Johnson contributed to this report

This article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060107/ap_on_re_us/landmark_church_fire

[lizzardbits]

bummer the church burnt...may it rest in peace....





last one to post in this thread is the debate "LOSER"

I will happily take that crown...... mbuh bye buh bye now........

[WildIrish]

WildIrish,

WAS over by the O'Leary place. It was pretty much totaled…

Fire Destroys Landmark Chicago Church
By KAREN HAWKINS, Associated Press Writer
Sat Jan 7, 2:39 PM ET


CHICAGO - The architecture was majestic, the gospel choir was inspiring and services at the Pilgrim Baptist Church were so popular that worshippers in the 1930s and '40s had to show up an hour early to find a seat.

On Friday, the 115-year-old church, an integral part of the development of gospel music, was destroyed by a fire so intense that its flames and smoke could be seen from miles away. The fire gutted the church and collapsed its roof and steeple. The cause wasn't known.

"It was a landmark church. God, it was just so beautiful," said Lena McLin, who was baptized at Pilgrim as a 12-year-old in the early 1940s. "It was very spiritual — you felt you were meeting the Lord there."

McLin's uncle was Thomas A. Dorsey — considered the father of gospel music — and Pilgrim was where he perfected his cross of the raw soulfulness of the blues with the sacred music of his youth. His all-time greatest hit, "Take My Hand, Precious Lord," was popularized by Mahalia Jackson and became a favorite of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.

He was Pilgrim's music director from 1932 until the late 1970s. The church was designated a Chicago landmark in 1981.

Over the decades, the gospel stars who performed at Pilgrim included Jackson, Sallie Martin, James Cleveland and the Edwin Hawkins Singers. The funeral service for early 20th century boxing champion Jack Johnson was held at the church.

The congregation recently numbered about 300, but in its heyday in the 1940s it had about 10,000 members, said the Rev. Hycel B. Taylor, the church's former pastor.

It had been "the quintessential black megachurch," he said.

The church was a place where the famous architects Louis Sullivan and Dankmar Adler experimented with the features that made them famous — such as vaulted ceilings, amazing acoustics and ornamental designs, such as the terra cotta panels with intricate foliage designs, said Ned Cramer, curator of the Chicago Architecture Foundation.

It was built as a synagogue between 1890 and 1891, but it has housed the Pilgrim congregation since 1922. The surrounding Bronzeville neighborhood was a vibrant hub for blacks during the first half of the 20th century.

"It's like hearing a close relative has died or a good friend. It's heartbreaking," said Cramer.

Though no one was injured in the blaze, it is feared the church's archives — including old photographs and Dorsey's original sheet music — were destroyed.

McLin said she's hopeful that Dorsey's wife might have sent some of those mementoes to Fisk University, where the family choose to deposit some of Dorsey's belongings. But she is sure a huge painting of her uncle — whom she lived with as a child — was destroyed.

Still, she said, she'll never forget the feeling of being in that church, surrounded by thousands of worshippers packed on the floor and the balcony, listening to gospel music.

"The spirit was just all over the place," she said.

Associated Press Writer Anna Johnson contributed to this report

This article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060107/ap_on_re_us/landmark_church_fire




/me whispers "it was a joke"

See, it's rumored that Mrs. O'Leary's cow knocked over a lantern and started the "Great Chicago Fire of 1871", (The Chicago Fire (www.TheChicagoFire.com) ) and since the Pilgrim Baptist Church was also in Chicago, I thought I'd make a little joke by connecting the two.

[jseal]

... I will happily take that crown...... mbuh bye buh bye now........
lizzardbits

Ah, it seems you’ll have to work for it. :)

Interesting that – about the “debate”. I looked back at the very beginning of the thread, and I noticed who challenged who, and then advocated an alternative. It gives some indication just where the “debate” started.

[maddy]

this thread, in an odd way, takes me down memory lane to when I took an educational tour of DC and NYC. I distinctly recall visiting two different churches during that week - and both had the claim to fame that they were THE church that George Washington attended/was a member of.

Alas, carry on, that's all I wanted to say.

[lizzardbits]

got my crown again

[PantyFanatic]

Trying to make the last post on this thread is like taking tweezers to a shit shoveling contest. :rolleyes:

[lizzardbits]

LMAO^^^ But it's the new "who's the winner game" totally pointless

Now gimme back my loser crown old man!

[jbh3]

I'll take the loser crown!
Stimulating conversation...here.I lefta Cnet forum because it was all PC and politics all the time.I come here for fun and I get this crap.
BTW.......






















WHO WANTS TO FUCK?!!

[lizzardbits]

i love fucking

i love being the looser!

again i'll have my crown back

[jbh3]

Honey I'm sure you're not loose.
And,I'm sure you're not the loser....I am.

[lizzardbits]

ahhh, but you see, sexy, you are wrong on that point.

i insist that i remain the loser! this loser crown is rather pretty....

[PantyFanatic]

LMAO^^^ But it's the new "who's the winner game" totally pointless...
And the rest of this thread wasn't? :rolleyes:





rofl :D

[lizzardbits]

that was precisely what i was implying!

notice that my loser crown has no points on it--it fits the thread and my head

good gawd! i am not only the loser, i am getting dumber by the moment. My I.Q. has now gone down
down
down
down
d
o
w
n

[WildIrish]

Did you say that you're going down? Mmmmmm, now there's a thought! :D

[jseal]

And the rest of this thread wasn't?
PantyFanatic,

That is true for those who do not learn from it.

[lizzardbits]

Did you say that you're going down? Mmmmmm, now there's a thought! :D
mmmmmm Yes! i'll go down, just as long as you don't knock my loser crown off my head!

[Booger]

PantyFanatic,

That is true for those who do not learn from it.


Yes we all get the point Jseal unless you have a dozen links to post (even if they are pointless and do anything to prove your point) don't post anything that disagrees with Jseal's point. Unless you want a pointless argument with self apointed Mr. Right.

[Fangtasia]

Links i can do links :D

The Origins of Gospel (http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/christian_music_gospel/17991)

[jseal]

Booger,

Thank you for you patience. The emotions seemed to be running rather high on Thursday night/Friday morning, so rather than increasing the likelihood of a post that shouldn’t be, I thought I’d let the passions die down somewhat.

Am I Mr. Right? No sir, I’ve been wrong often enough in the past to know that I can be wrong at any time. That is why, as I have said before, I try to base my opinions on evidence.

You’ll note that my eight references all include Thomas A. Dorsey, with descriptions such as “seminal influence”, the "Father of Gospel Music", “the first who composed such new songs”, “the Father of Contemporary Gospel”, etc. This is why I consider them coherent, as they have him as the coordinating theme. As Mr. Dorsey was PBC’s music director starting in 1932, it seems to me to be reasonable to conclude that Gospel Music originated where he practiced it, at that church in Chicago.

I am aware that by responding to your post, I am exposing myself to criticisms, such as gratuitously extending the life of this thread, being verbose, etc. etc. While your posts seemed to me to be somewhat harsh, I thought they warranted a reasonable response. I also hope that the fact that I took the time to respond to your posts will not anger you.

[Steph]

You’ll note that my eight references all include Thomas A. Dorsey, with descriptions such as “seminal influence”, the "Father of Gospel Music", “the first who composed such new songs”, “the Father of Contemporary Gospel”, etc. This is why I consider them coherent, as they have him as the coordinating theme. As Mr. Dorsey was PBC’s music director starting in 1932, it seems to me to be reasonable to conclude that Gospel Music originated where he practiced it, at that church in Chicago.

I am aware that by responding to your post, I am exposing myself to criticisms, such as gratuitously extending the life of this thread, being verbose, etc. etc. While your posts seemed to me to be somewhat harsh, I thought they warranted a reasonable response. I also hope that the fact that I took the time to respond to your posts will not anger you.


Ahahahahaha, so you're not acknowledging what Boog said about you posting link after link after link to prove a case. Nope, you're now going to spell it out.

Seriously.

Why are you here, jseal? Are there not debate forums you'd find more enjoyable?

It's a sex site & I'm getting the sense you're getting your jollies by being holier than thou.

Seriously!

In a sick way, I think you enjoy that. That's sad.

[Booger]

[QUOTE= Click here (http://www.island.net/~blues/gospel.htm), QUOTE]

Your argument is very thin at best. Yes your eight references all include Thomas A. Dorsey but if you also look at the first link you referenced you'll note the first paragraph says

The word Gospel is an elision of 'God' and 'spel' (The old English for story). The genre is distinguished primarily by spontaneity and informality, qualities which, while sometimes arousing suspicion or unease, have been present since the very beginnings of the Christian faith. By a further arbitrary use of the term, however, Gospel music is considered to have begun in the United States, sometimes in the 19th century, first appearing in print in 1874 with the publication of Gospel Songs by Philip Bliss


so I guess my question is did how did godspel get published 25 years before Thomas A. Dorsey was born? Did Thomas A. Dorsey also invent the time machine and go back in time or did it fall threw a rift in time to be published.

P.S. nope emotions weren't running high wednessday night/thursday morning at all. Just observations that I have made from this thread and watching you in the past on this site.

[jseal]

Steph,

When I presented my evidence in the form of unexpanded links, Booger referred to them as pointless. When I presented the same evidence, but limited to the particulars that were (and remain) the crux of the examples from the original references, his response was different. While it is clear that he remains unpersuaded by what the authors have to say, he did take the time to respond in kind. Changing how I presented what I had to say changed how he responded.

It is impossible to satisfy criticism both when I use links for my references and also when I do not.

It is true that Pixies Place still has many sexually oriented pictures, and I am only one of many who browse the erotic stories. That being said, in the Advice forum you may be surprised to find:

Lilith, in the Pixies Power thread is exploring “support in our efforts to change our lifestyle meaning things like habits (such as smoking or even financial spending), dietary changes, or exercise.” She also started the General Well Being thread, the focus of which is being healthier.

Lion started a thread concerning replacing the timing belt on his car. It is in a post to that thread that Booger expressed his opinion that if you look at the site as a whole that sex is only a small part of it.

wanderingsoul’s Those damn 'describe yourself' questions! is a thread where people posted suggestions on how to improve his profile on some personal sites - including web design.

LixyChick’s Softer Hands...Stronger Nails??? is about manicure.

Two recent threads focused on travel plan suggestions, several on particular physical ailments. I also think that is more appropriate to view some of the threads as relating to romance, rather than sex.

In the General Chat forum the ratio of sexual to non-sexual threads is even more heavily weighted towards the non-sexual. I’d go so far as to suggest that most of the threads there have a non-sexual focus. That could be interesting to determine, although it might be difficult to decide what exactly is a “sex thread”.

Most of the threads in the Games forum are not sexually oriented, although we often take advantage of the opportunities that become available.

Given what I’ve listed above, as to Pixies being a sex site; I’m sure you don’t mean to suggest that that limits the extent of our community, do you? I’m minded of something GingerV once wrote as part of a post “… That Pixies is a wonderful open sexual playground is great, but if it was nothing but naked folks I'd have moved on a long time since …”. I tend to agree with that position. I think that many other long term members do also.

You and I march to the beat of rather different drummers. While I find the personal posts you and PantyFanatic make about me a bit of a bother, there’s little I can do about them, and so I carry on as best I can. I do suspect that those posts are among the reasons that others here often fear having their personal ideas challenged and so don't speak up. All I can suggest is that you try to not let my different point of view upset you so much. In the same vein as BIBI’s response to someone’s complaint about finding a timing belt thread at Pixies, ”LMAO...why let it get your knickers in a knot?”.

[osuche]

I do suspect that those posts are among the reasons that others here often fear having their personal ideas challenged and so don't speak up. All I can suggest is that you try to not let my different point of view upset you so much. In the same vein as BIBI’s response to someone’s complaint about finding a timing belt thread at Pixies, ”LMAO...why let it get your knickers in a knot?”.

Here ^^^ is where jseal and I both agree, "pompous" or not. :D

I support our rights to have different perspectives, ideas, and experiences...and I think it's one of the things that made Pixies Place a great place to be...back in the day. But recently I've felt my honest ideas and opinions are a lot less welcome...and I may not be the only one.

<sigh>

[Lilith]

Osuche, you have expressed that several times in the past year and I'd like to point out that we all have that happen at times. I believe I posted my honest idea/opinion in this thread.

[osuche]

I know...I get frustrated, go away...and then come back a few weeks later because (in general) I LIKE this place, and many of the people in it. I just find that people tend to only like *me* when I try to fit in, not when I express my true feelings.

But then again, such is life.

I've stayed out of this thread because I know NOTHING about gospel music. Nothing. But it makes me sad to see a mass feeding frenzy on one member...especially when it gets so personal. Life's too short to spend much time being mean to others...I think there is good in everyone, and a viewpoint that can be appreciated.

[Lilith]

I agree and as I stated my issue comes when someone constantly feels the need to challenge everyone else's viewpoint and I am tired of seeing good topics go bad because of the same situation over and over. People should be welcome to express/discuss their views with out being forced to defend them constantly.

[jbh3]

OK..What's all this talk about making Puerto Rico a steak?

[Fangtasia]

I know...I get frustrated, go away...and then come back a few weeks later because (in general) I LIKE this place, and many of the people in it. I just find that people tend to only like *me* when I try to fit in, not when I express my true feelings.
Well let me say you try be an Aussie and try to fit in *LOL*

Noone gets my humour nor my slang

[PantyFanatic]

...Noone gets my humour nor my slang
Have you tried subtitles? :D rofl





(inside joke ;) )

[Fangtasia]

*pokes tongue out at PF*


LMAO

[Steph]

Here ^^^ is where jseal and I both agree, "pompous" or not. :D


It's too funny. I was at a party tonight & there was a pompous know-it-all dude (Yes, I know jseal & PalaceGuard don't like dude but I'll have to deal with that somehow) there & he didn't even know he was pompous.

Agree or not . . . pompousity is something that has to be looked at . . . spade a spade, etc.

[osuche]

Well let me say you try be an Aussie and try to fit in *LOL*

Noone gets my humour nor my slang

Humor, slang, holidays....or the fact that you drive on the wrong side of the road. :D But it's the differences that make this place fun!

I do know it must be hard...especially since we're all on a WAY different time zone than you. (((((Alasse))))

[jseal]

Steph,

Your post above emphasizes my concern about how few registered users here post. Please take a moment to review this thread. Think of how it may appear to a registered user who has not yet mustered up the courage to start a thread. After removing the personalities, this is what she or he can look forward to:

1. The very first response is one challenging a base assumption of the thread.

2. After our thread starter defends the assumption, the next post advocates an alternative definition, which if accepted, denies the validity of the thread.

3. She accepts the debate, and challenges her challenger, but the response she gets takes the form that the advocated alternative is an opinion formed beforehand and which does not need back up.

4. Now Challenger #2 posts, also without substantiation, that “it's so obviously the case.”

5. The thread starter replies to this new post that there are an awful lot of opinions that were once obvious but are no longer, and identifies a few.

6. The first challenger mistakes this response and irately begins a reply with “WTF”, the common acronym for “What The Fuck”.

7. So now our thread starter replies that her reply to challenger #2 had to do with challenger #1, and opines that there seems to be different ideas about conversation afoot here.

8. Challenger #1, who initiated the debate, then criticizes the thread starter for engaging in a debate.

9. Now another – new poster to the thread, mind you – after the obfuscation is removed, advises the thread starter to eat shit.

… and it goes on and on and on with other personal attacks and insults towards the thread starter.


I think that an environment like this is very uninviting to anyone thinking about starting a thread for the first time.

[Lilith]

I will say what I believe to be true. You are either part of the solution or part of the problem. Jseal you repeatedly in this forum refuse to see your responsibility as part of the problem and therefore the situation has little chance of being remedied.

Consistently the same few personalities clash. I think if it's a problem a wise solution would be to just not post or respond to people or threads begun by those who you know will invariably turn things ugly. It is what I intend to do.

[Booger]

Steph,

Your post above emphasizes my concern about how few registered users here post. Please take a moment to review this thread. Think of how it may appear to a registered user who has not yet mustered up the courage to start a thread. After removing the personalities, this is what she or he can look forward to:

1. The very first response is one challenging a base assumption of the thread.

2. After our thread starter defends the assumption, the next post advocates an alternative definition, which if accepted, denies the validity of the thread.

3. She accepts the debate, and challenges her challenger, but the response she gets takes the form that the advocated alternative is an opinion formed beforehand and which does not need back up.

4. Now Challenger #2 posts, also without substantiation, that “it's so obviously the case.”

5. The thread starter replies to this new post that there are an awful lot of opinions that were once obvious but are no longer, and identifies a few.

6. The first challenger mistakes this response and irately begins a reply with “WTF”, the common acronym for “What The Fuck”.

7. So now our thread starter replies that her reply to challenger #2 had to do with challenger #1, and opines that there seems to be different ideas about conversation afoot here.

8. Challenger #1, who initiated the debate, then criticizes the thread starter for engaging in a debate.

9. Now another – new poster to the thread, mind you – after the obfuscation is removed, advises the thread starter to eat shit.

… and it goes on and on and on with other personal attacks and insults towards the thread starter.


I think that an environment like this is very uninviting to anyone thinking about starting a thread for the first time.

Jsael you seemed to miss two steps


2.5. A 3rd party enters into the argument (this being an open forum I assume this is excepted). The third party using part of the first parties argument points out a big hole in the first party arugmaent. But is ignored becuase if the first party excepted this he would be wrong.

10. Once again the trird party state his case to be ignored beccause the first party find it easier to respond to the party who told him to eat shit

[WildIrish]

Don't forget #61, where Lizzardbits offered to go down on me! That's an important one!


Well, to me. :p

[jseal]

WildIrish,

Wasn't that going to be #69?

[WildIrish]

I don't know that I offered to simultaneously reciprocate.



But I would! :D

[jseal]

WildIrish,

Hey, I had the camera all set up and everything!

[WildIrish]

We better get clearance from Mayhem on this one. Lizz is spoken for. ;)

[Belial]

It's too funny. I was at a party tonight & there was a pompous know-it-all dude (Yes, I know jseal & PalaceGuard don't like dude but I'll have to deal with that somehow) there & he didn't even know he was pompous.

Agree or not . . . pompousity is something that has to be looked at . . . spade a spade, etc.

I like to call a spade a fucking shovel...then again that might be inverted pomposity....AARGH I'm pretentious! :D