Now, this just pisses me off

[gekkogecko]

People who twist their "freedom of religion" to freedom of hate.

URL:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/23/AR2005092300402.html

Text:
School Expels Girl for Having Gay Parents

The Associated Press
Friday, September 23, 2005; 7:05 AM

ONTARIO, Calif. -- A 14-year-old student was expelled from a Christian school because her parents are lesbians, the school's superintendent said in a letter.

Shay Clark was expelled from Ontario Christian School on Thursday.

"Your family does not meet the policies of admission," Superintendent Leonard Stob wrote to Tina Clark, the girl's biological mother.

Stob wrote that school policy requires that at least one parent may not engage in practices "immoral or inconsistent with a positive Christian life style, such as cohabitating without marriage or in a homosexual relationship," The Los Angeles Times reported in Friday's edition.

Stob could not be reached for comment by the newspaper. Shay and her parents said they won't fight the ruling.

School administrators learned of the parents' relationship this week after Shay was reprimanded for talking to the crowd during a football game, Tina Clark said.

Clark and her partner have been together 22 years and have two other daughters, ages 9 and 19.

[IenkiMoonshine]

>> "School administrators learned of the parents' relationship this week after Shay was reprimanded for talking to the crowd during a football game, Tina Clark said."<<

wow.. I wonder what she said to the crowd during the football game? Wonder what the school did to "learn of" the relationship.
Sounds like she's being punished for something else? I tried to find more, but only found that she was a cheerleader there.

[scotzoidman]

People who twist their "freedom of religion" to freedom of hate.

Certainly I would allow that a private Christian school has the right to set their own standards of behavior for the students & their families...
still, I feel a slow burn coming on whenever I find narrow-mindedness & bigotry in the name of religion...
thus the last line in my current signature...

[dicksbro]

Certainly I would allow that a private Christian school has the right to set their own standards of behavior for the students & their families...

I don't know the church, school or denomination, but I'm not sure that the school would think of their rules as being rules of "hate." That's a pretty strong term.

I suspect, other schools sponsored by other faiths might also have rules based on their church's teachings and beliefs ... can't even imagine why they wouldn't, but, more than that, I guess I've always wondered why people go to places where they knew they are in conflict with the rules (especially private institutions) and even more so why they would subject their children to such a situation. :confused:

I always wondered why adults send kids into stores to buy liquor or whatever ... simply to test the rules. Seems like something of a disregard for the child's well being in order to promote the adult's point of view. I remember a case in Illinois (a lot of years ago) where a mother sent her child into an adult book store to try and get the clerk to sell to an under age minor. The adult book store owner had charges filed against the woman for "contributing to the deliquency of a minor" for putting her child up to it. Funny, both cases were dropped.

Oh ... by-the-way ... I don't know that the child was enrolled to "test" the powers that be. Could be they just thought the school provided a good education. But, they must have been aware of the rules, and, the fact they didn't fight the ruling says they weren't as upset as all that. In any case, I hope the child is able to get enrolled in a new school where her family's values are not the issue.

[jseal]

Indeed so!

As we have seen very recently, narrow-mindedness, bigotry and insensitivity can happen anywhere. It is something we should always be on our guard against.

[Lilith]

I worked for a church school for a long time, until we got a new pastor there and he made his own views those of the church. They were not mine and not ones I would abide by. I left. I don't want to be associated withthings that do not reflect my own views as well.

[Pita]

I don't know the church, school or denomination, but I'm not sure that the school would think of their rules as being rules of "hate." That's a pretty strong term.



I agree that hate is a very harsh word to use here. A private school has every right to set their own rules as they see fit. A Christian school has every right to follow their interpetation of the Bible. I certainly wouldn't put my child into a private school that went against my own personal beliefs nor would I expect that school to change their rules to suit me.

[osuche]

I understand the point about "the rules being the rules." However, it also strikes me that the poor child is really the one suffering here...she's the one that will loose all of her friends and have to start over. And that makes me sad -- it's not her "fault" her parents broke the rules. And punishing the kid seems like a very un-Christian thing to me.

One other sentence in this article strikes me as amusing... "school policy requires that at least one parent may not engage in practices "immoral or inconsistent with a positive Christian life style, such as cohabitating without marriage or in a homosexual relationship," -- ONE PARENT?!? Isn't that a bit selective in and of itself?

[Lilith]

LOL I thought that too. Leaves it open for a dad to watch his Mrs. with another Mrs. :p

[osuche]

So....if one of the lesbian moms just laid there, and the other one did all the work/initiating.........can the poor kid go back to school???? :D :p :D

[LixyChick]

Doesn't surprise me a bit...nor does it piss me off. I'd only be pissed if it was a surprise!

Religion has long been the foundation for confrontation. And...in all fairness...these people chose to send their child to a place where they had to know wouldn't agree with their lifestyle choice. Maybe they didn't know all the by-laws...but you can't tell me that they have been hermits and didn't know that "Jesus loves the little children...all the children of the world...red and yellow, black and white...they are precious in his sight...unless they're gay or know someone who is"! Geezzzzzzzz...even I knew that from my Sunday school days!

P.S. There are other lifestyle/life choices that would fit into that song too...of that I am sure!

[Scarecrow]

Hell will be filled with all the well intended bible thumpin' christians who try to exclude people for one reason or another.

[lakritze]

WOW! This is happening about 50 free way miles away from me.A little to close to home.The last time I looked,we still live in a "blue state". But as everyone should know, this a'int religion.It is a result of religion being hijacked by the neo-cons.I have sent money to Americans United for the Seperation of Church and State to battle the excesses of run amouk fundamentalism,only to find out that these gullable types are being told that people who support such organizations are "persecuting" christians.Go figure. The two lesbian parents should realize that their son would receive a better education else where.

[jseal]

I agree with lakritze. This has nothing whatever to do with religion. This is an example of a private organization enforcing its First Amendment free speech and freedom of association rights.

It is so sad that it was the 14 year old girl who had to pay the price. :(

[Lilith]

There are plenty of churches that do not have anti homosexuality doctrines. Hopefully if the parents truly wanted their child to have a religious education, they will be able to find a church with a more open minded interpretation of the "good" book.

I wonder if the same school would kick out any children whose parents committed other acts that they considered unChristian and I wonder if parents are given a handbook of what those activities could be?

As a church school director, we had several same sex parented families, for us it was a non-issue despite the denomination still being undecided as to how their pastors should proceed. To exclude the children based on the actions, choices, lifestyles of their parents was just not a reasonable option to me, regardless of what sort of things that entailed.

[jseal]

While it is possible that the girl’s parents were unaware of the school’s position on sexual orientation, it does seem odd to me that her parents chose that school. I have to think there were other reasons which influenced their decision. Academic standing, affordability, location – that sort of thing.

[moose]

my question would be is the school teaching the child or the parents, and does this open a case of discrimination to the child ?

[Lilith]

moose, in the US churches are permitted to discriminate. Often they are permitted all the rights the US affords but due to the separation of church and state they often are not required to follow the laws and rules the US has established for non-religious based institutions.

[jseal]

Moose,

As a rule of thumb, the First Amendment free speech and freedom of association rights applies to private organizations which are not funded by tax dollars.

There are only a few exceptions to this rule.

[moose]

thanks for the info, i am not sure they would get away with that here

[Lilith]

thanks for the info, i am not sure they would get away with that here

I've not sure they should here either

[jseal]

I've not sure they should here either

Lilith,

Are you suggesting that First Amendment free speech and freedom of association rights be withdrawn from religious organizations?

[Lilith]

Yes when they use tax dollars given in the form of school vouchers.

[Aqua]

I believe they have a right to do so, though I strongly disagree with their stance.

And I agree with Lilith... if a private institutuion receives federal assistance (be it monies or vouchers) then they should not be allowed exemption from the First Amendment.

[jseal]

Lilith,

If you are referring to the schools which accept the vouchers, then I couldn't agree with you more. A bad idea that. I presume you were not referring to the religious institutions with which the schools are affiliated, are you?

[jseal]

I believe they have a right to do so, though I strongly disagree with their stance...

“Hear, hear!”

[Lilith]

I believe that churches who own/run schools and receive public monies/vouchers should not be able to discriminate in regards to the school's admission for any reason. If they want public funds they need to abide by the same requirements that public school faces.

I also believe that if they are receiving public monies/vouchers to educate ESE students, they should be required to privide ESE services and no longer have those students receive services from the county.

[maddy]

Educate me please - what is ESE? I always want to believe it's English as a second language but that's ESL.

[Lilith]

Right maddy ESOL is English secong language learners. ESE is Exceptional Student Education, everything from gifted to a variety of handicaps.

[jseal]

Lilith,

Again, if you are referring to the schools which accept the vouchers, then we are in agreement.

The notion of the State distributing tax monies from the General Treasury without regulating how it is used is a terrible idea. As a taxpayer I would expect sufficient oversight. I can also see how the faithful of <put your religion here> would take exception to having some “non believer” dictate the limits on how those dollars are to be used. A bad idea all around.

I don’t know any details, but you make it sound as if Florida’s Exceptional Student Education needs a sober second look.

[WildIrish]

If a Muslim/Hindu school learned that one of it's students came from a family that ate pork/beef...would they not expell them? It's a fundamental of their religion, and it's not outrageous to require the parents of students enrolled to follow the faith and beliefs.

It's part of the religion! If you believe...you have to do it! If you don't believe...you don't go there! And that includes the opposite. To do it (go there), you have to believe.

What is coming of this world where people have the audacity to expect an entire religion to make an exception of one it's cornerstone fundamentals...for them?

I don't have a problem with Catholic learning institutions requiring it's students & families to be Catholic. If you're not, and don't want to be...why enroll your child there?

Unless, as discussed recently, the school is under federal subsidy. At that point...no exceptions, and no exclusions. Gay, straight, crippled or crazy.....you pay, you attend.

[jseal]

WildIrish,


“Hear, hear!”

[dicksbro]

I don't have a problem with Catholic learning institutions requiring it's students & families to be Catholic. If you're not, and don't want to be...why enroll your child there?

Most parochial schools I am aware of in this area do not require students to be or become members of that faith community. The only requirement is that if there are religious oriented classes ... and there are ... the non-member must be a part of those required classes. Often the non-member family pays a premium for sending their child to the school.

So, why do non-members send their children? Many times it's the real or perceived weakness of the public school district in their area; or particular problems with the faculty or staff of a particular public school their child would be required to attend.

I do agree that if you don't want your child exposed to the religious beliefs expressed at a school ... for heavens sake, your child shouldn't be sent there.

[moose]

I attended a catholic school here up unto high school, our school required we attend church on sunday and even with 700 other kids in the school they always seem to know when you missed a sunday mass, and although they did not require they parents to attend church they would always say something like I haven’t seen you at mass for a while to them to make them feel guilty I belive.

most people here send there kids to catholic schools for 2 reasons 1, they think their kids will for so reason grow up to be trouble free kids with better chances in life because they attended catholic schools. 2, they will get a better education because the catholic schools get nearly double the funding of public schools and that’s not counting the fees they also charge the parents

[dicksbro]

Interesting. Our seven kids attended a Catholic parochial grade school. Parishioners were given first chance to enroll their kids, but non-Catholics could attend. Sunday mass was not an obligation for them or their parents ... but during the week the classes attended one mass and the whole class attended but non-Catholics did not have to participate in the liturgy. Catholic students served as altar servers or did the readings from the Bible.

Most non-Catholics sent kids because they felt the education was better and/or the presence of moral teachings would be better than what they could expect at the public schools. (That was the perception ... not necessarily the truth. The local public schools are considered among very, very good.) Friends whose kids attend a Lutheran grade school suggested similar requirements or expectations.

[Pita]

What is coming of this world where people have the audacity to expect an entire religion to make an exception of one it's cornerstone fundamentals...for them?




Right on! :thumb:

[jseal]

Gentlefolk,

In general, it seems that if the school is privately funded, the academic standards must satisfy the requirements of an oversight organization, the Middle States Commission on Higher Education (http://www.msche.org/?Nav1=ABOUT&Nav2=MISSION) being an example. The non-academic requirements are limited by state and federal law. This freedom of choice permits different organizations to present a range of choices to prospective students.

On balance, that seems reasonable. We must accept that, while most people here at Pixies (I presume) don’t approve of the admission policies of the Ontario Christian School, there are many, many people who do.

I’m sure that the admissions policies of VMI and the Citadel (Public) are substantially different from those of College Of Notre Dame Of Maryland or Baltimore Hebrew University (Private). Different clientele, different offerings.

[WildIrish]

The non-academic requirements are limited by state and federal law.


Meaning the state and federal govt has some control over what privately funded organizations such as schools can require of it's enrollee's.

Question is...Is following the faith of the establishment one of them?

[jseal]

WildIrish,

Good question. I'm unsure, but I suspect that following the rites of a sponsoring religious organization could be a perfectly legal requirement for remaining enrolled in such a school. For example, in a madrasa or a university for teaching RC priests.