The Ying Yang of Katrina

[PantyFanatic]

Have a seat folks. :)
:box:


We have gotten to see the Ying of this horrific event in the structure of the United States governmental bureaucracy. This is NOT a new or unique condition that is indicative of any country, political party, administration or to democracy itself. Patronage is just part of rewarding the political faithful and has long been a big chunk of any political system. While I have some major issues with current Federal actions, this is a state of affairs that is imbedded at all levels of State and local government as well. The reality is that it will always be part-and-parcel of government, by nature and function.

The topic here is not that people will be given rewards and jobs as a function of the system, (well, it IS an issue with me, but not the top one of the moment :mad: ) but that they are put in positions of authority without any degree of ability or know-how. When private business has the brother-in-law that needs a job, he is put in charge of light bulb repair kit inventory, NOT production control. All levels and departments of our government are filled with completely incompetent and ignorant people, but my exception is that they are at the top. The dedicated and knowledgeable people that have chosen to serve our society should not have to devote most of their effort at working around them. Responsibility, authority and accountability MUST always be the three balanced components of any job.

Do we have the chance to demand the Yang of review and adjusting of our executive government positions to be staffed with someone that has a minimal amount of competence, experience and management ability? Finger pointing and ass-covering is well underway now that functional people are doing their part to help those in distress. I’m looking for a way to keep the pressure actually focused on improving the necessary evils of ALL the bureaucracies and minimize the antics of the political circus that I believe is going to take center ring. The shroud of complacency and faith was blown away by Katrina and I think we have an opportunity to truly makes the major improvements that only come in the face of such a calamity.

Do you think there is room for meaningful change to any aspect of your government, regardless of where you are? Who and how are you going to contact, not with your complaints and condemnation, but with your desire and demand for improvement? What are you going to DO to make something happen?




I need that oxygen now Lixy. :wobble:

:faint:

[BigBear57]

Whoa..... my friend. What a major can of worms you do speak of. I've been involved on the local level of emergency management here in my small town/county and it's gotten to political blows about everything. The day we have common sense seep into the position appointing I'll be shocked as hell! My baby brother has been a firefighter and EMT for years now and he's one of the most devoted people I've ever seen about his choice of career. He had a fire chief try to hang him with a bunch of wrongdoing. Fortunately, chief discovered, not all small town boys are dummies. Baby brother had everything documented and promptly dumped the turd back in chief's plate. Having to go through a suspension and court proceedings pulled some of the wind from his sails though. I haven't heard from him lately but I'm betting he's somewhere in the hurricane zone working his ass off now. After 9-11 he went to NY on his on.. his crew decided not to send anybody so Bro' said "Fuck Y'all then... I'm on vacation!" LOL He went with another crew on his own time. I know there are highly trained competent people involved, we just have to figure out how to get the pol;iticians to see that and let THEM run the show.

OK, pass the oxygen... or Lixy...that works too :rofl:

[dicksbro]

I do agree, except the problem with total ineptitude is even greater at the local and state level. What I've heard and seen infuriates me.

Seeing two hundred buses that could have evacuated people ... almost 20,000 ... but didn't. A shelter estabished, but without any provisions. Delayed for almost a week in even beginning serious preparations for the hurricane.

Then, learning the state government rejected an initial federal offer to position people closer because they were afraid it would reflect poorly on them ... seems incomprehensible to me. I think the governor and mayor should also resign as being unfit to hold a position of responsibility.

If these things are true (and I've seen the pictures of the school buses .. now flooded and needing replacing) ... I think dorkedness is more widespread than just the federal level.

No one (read politicans) seemed to have the guts to do what was required ... most of all those closest to the disaster. :mad:

By the way, the people lending a hand are SUPER! They deserve the credit in spite of their leadership. :)

[Lilith]

Interesting that you used a "brother-in-law" as the example. Rarely do we hear that someone has pushed their mother, sister, aunt, daughter, sister in law, grandma, into position of authority for which they are not qualified. Truly a "good Ol' BOYS" network.

Let's see, my state HoR has 119 reps. Maybe I should take that^^^^^ complaint to them....oh there is only 27 women in the state HoR. I guess I'll get no where there.

Sorry this was about a different sort of ying yang :spin:

[dreamgurl]

PF my responce to all this is a goverment for the people by the people, most of the country is uneducated ( at least in my area)in any manner let alone politics, the only way to change that is to change everyone. And to put on my little rant is if people don't take care of themselves and expect someone else to do it they will get their lesson while those of us who see the brighter side will be moving on. That's the reason why the boys club works so well if these people can't blame themselves they have good ole' Billy Bob Jethro and his 20,000 family members that will be there as a figurehead.

*slumps away* sheesh thinking gives me a headache lol

[jseal]

PantyFanatic,

You’re quite right about ineptitude not being limited. Back in the ‘80s, there was an enjoyable sitcom which ran on the BBC titled Yes Minister (http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/guide/articles/y/yesminister_7777145.shtml)

How about this quote:

"…needed to know was not known at the time that the now known need to know was known, and therefore those of us who needed to advise and inform felt that the information that we needed as to whether or not to inform the highest authority of the known information was not yet known, and therefore there was no authority for the authority to be informed because the need to know was not yet known, or needed."

Sounds eerily familiar…

Political change in democracies is traditionally brought about via elections. The limitations exposed by Katrina in the various governmental agencies are perfectly good reasons to vote for change – provided that one or more candidates offer such change.

[Scarecrow]

The only real problem is that one idiot is just as bad as the next idiot.


Sorry I mean politician, did not mean to demean the town idiot. ;)

[Booger]

dream on PF in a couple of months it will be back to the norm. An old man like you should know by now that it not how hard you work or what you know it's who you blow that gets the job.

[Lilith]

If that were the case^^^^^ we'd have a woman in the white house................oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo or is that the case ????????? :o

[jseal]

Well, we DO have a Bush in the White House.

[PantyFanatic]

Whoa..... my friend. What a major can of worms you do speak of. ... The day we have common sense seep into the position appointing I'll be shocked as hell! ..... I know there are highly trained competent people involved, we just have to figure out how to get the pol;iticians to see that and let THEM run the show.

OK, pass the oxygen... or Lixy...that works too :rofl:
Your brother is the only type of person that actually does the job. We and the people of the Gulf coast will always be dependent and grateful for the many like him. The people in charge of ANY function that a public agency is charged with performing, MUST be filled with knowledgeable people. The line between ‘politician’ and capable management needs to be moved up.

(I’m going to need some of that Lixy to go on myself. :slurp: )

I do agree, except the problem with total ineptitude is even greater at the local and state level. ...Then, learning the state government rejected an initial federal offer to position people closer because they were afraid it would reflect poorly on them ... seems incomprehensible to me. I think the governor and mayor should also resign as being unfit to hold a position of responsibility... ... I think dorkedness is more widespread than just the federal level. ...By the way, the people lending a hand are SUPER! They deserve the credit in spite of their leadership. :)
What we have had *SLAP* us in the face is something I have long felt is inherent at EVERY level from the White House, to the town hall of Mayberry RFD. I wish I felt it were only prevalent in emergency response sectors of the system. The deeper it is in the complex structure of present society, the less likely it is that light will ever be shown on it. I guess it’s the natural outgrowth from decades of complacency. Our general prosperity inched along with jerks and drips and we were too preoccupied to notice the rotting of the foundation as we built.

[PantyFanatic]

.... Truly a "good Ol' BOYS" network…. Maybe I should take that^^^^^ complaint to them....Sorry this was about a different sort of ying yang :spin:
Yes it is. But as things evolve and all genders fill the seats of power, I’m sure any woman can be as incompetent as any man. I don’t have a complaint about the total fuckup, (MANY are temporarily taking care of that), but about the system we created that ALLOWED it to happen. It’s about keeping some capable people at the front of the pack in every bureaucracy and stopping the patronage from being the FIRST form of organization.

….. most of the country is uneducated ( at least in my area)in any manner let alone politics, … if people don't take care of themselves and expect someone else to do it they will get their lesson …..*slumps away* sheesh thinking gives me a headache lol
You are right about most of us being unaware of what goes on beneath the surface of those elected to take care of us AND about our responsibility for ourselves. Blind faith in Big Brother being there and doing it for us has jumped on stage with both boots. We are the ones responsible for ourselves and responsible for putting something in place to help when it’s needed. We are ALSO responsible for when that ‘help’ is not able to work because it has become a self serving entity of it’s own. I suppose that is the Yang I’m trying to see in the disaster that has unfolded.

The only real problem is that one idiot is just as bad as the next idiot.

Sorry I mean politician, did not mean to demean the town idiot. ;)
We know that politics and being a politician is a sewer and profession of very snaky people. The division between them and the dedicated, capable people that do the deeds is the concern I have. Manipulation and spin are the things that we are going to be smothered with for months to come………. while the people with competence fumble through with what they been given in equipment and leadership

[PantyFanatic]

dream on PF in a couple of months it will be back to the norm. An old man like you should know by now that it not how hard you work or what you know it's who you blow that gets the job.
For once I have to agree with the wisdom of the Wama-Lama. That IS what get the job, but it’s the person with ‘know’, who works at it, that gets the job DONE! It will be back to normal if we wait for them to pick up the rug and let us see what is being swept under. I was just having a fantasy that people might set their causes aside and not let all the sad facts of this event be swept away in a few months for ‘business as usual’ in the system.

If that were the case^^^^^ we'd have a woman in the white house................oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo or is that the case ????????? :o
I am as old as Boog says and like to dream of a woman in EVERY house, and that they may even be above the greed and self serving shortsightedness most of the politicians have shown, but as equality grows, ………………. equality grows!

[dicksbro]

What we have had *SLAP* us in the face is something I have long felt is inherent at EVERY level from the White House, to the town hall of Mayberry RFD. I wish I felt it were only prevalent in emergency response sectors of the system. The deeper it is in the complex structure of present society, the less likely it is that light will ever be shown on it. I guess it’s the natural outgrowth from decades of complacency. Our general prosperity inched along with jerks and drips and we were too preoccupied to notice the rotting of the foundation as we built.

I think you're right, PF. Worst part about it is that I don't see where the relief will come from. There's the unusual one or two that seem to have some level of common sense and ... dare I say it ... decency. But, by no means, do they rule the roost ... and usually they get shunned by even their own parties. And, our media doesn't help much. Seems like truth and itegrity have deserted them, too. I remember a time when they tried to tell you the way it was ... and not the way their editors wanted it to be. :(

Hmmmm ... does that mean if we don't know where we're going, we stand a pretty good chance of getting there? :confused:

[PantyFanatic]

..... There's the unusual one or two that seem to have some level of common sense and ... dare I say it ... decency. But, by no means, do they rule the roost ... and usually they get shunned by even their own parties. And, our media doesn't help much. Seems like truth and itegrity have deserted them, too. I remember a time when they tried to tell you the way it was ... and not the way their editors wanted it to be. :(

Hmmmm ... does that mean if we don't know where we're going, we stand a pretty good chance of getting there? :confused:
LOL :rofl: I think it does. And I’m sure that is EXACTLY what they are working with and counting on and have been for a long time. We KNOW that is that is their profession and they are better than we will EVER be at it. It’s too bad that it has taken something like Katrina to blow the façade away from ALL the levels. It’s not about ‘parties’ or any group anywhere. It’s that we see what we have bought and what they have delivered. If WE let them go back to ‘Business As Usual’, it’s OUR fault we get BAU.

[scotzoidman]

Interesting that you used a "brother-in-law" as the example. Rarely do we hear that someone has pushed their mother, sister, aunt, daughter, sister in law, grandma, into position of authority for which they are not qualified. Truly a "good Ol' BOYS" network.

Let's see, my state HoR has 119 reps. Maybe I should take that^^^^^ complaint to them....oh there is only 27 women in the state HoR. I guess I'll get no where there.

Sorry this was about a different sort of ying yang :spin:
since we're on a hijacking binge anyway, I'd like to report a minor step foward (or backward, depending on one's outlook) for gender equity...FBI has run a sting called "Operation: TN Waltz" that caught several state lawmakers taking outright bribes...& there was at least one female legislator snared in the trap...

[dicksbro]

since we're on a hijacking binge anyway, I'd like to report a minor step foward (or backward, depending on one's outlook) for gender equity...FBI has run a sting called "Operation: TN Waltz" that caught several state lawmakers taking outright bribes...& there was at least one female legislator snared in the trap...

Bravo! I hadn't heard that, but :thumb:!

(The bravo is for the sting operation in general!!)

[scotzoidman]

Just felt it was timely to bring it up in the since that TN has been very much the home of the "good ole boys" network from the early days...

[jseal]

...It’s not about ‘parties’ or any group anywhere. It’s that we see what we have bought and what they have delivered. If WE let them go back to ‘Business As Usual’, it’s OUR fault we get BAU.

PantyFanatic,

What do you propose as an alternative?

[PantyFanatic]

....FBI has run a sting called "Operation: TN Waltz" that caught several state lawmakers taking outright bribes.…...
The sad aspect of this is graft and corruption are so much a part of political structures, we don’t bat an eye when the few blatant and total bunglers are caught, but give a chastising nod without any sense of shock or surprise ……… because there is no sense of shock or surprise. :( It’s par for the course.

The problem with outrage at corruption is that it is itself a political tool. My :rant: is not regarding the character of the politician as if it were unknown. It’s concerned with the squandered use of the power we’ve vested them with, that now is plainly not being used to even bring people capable of responsible action to position. We now have more like themselves in those critical posts. Katrina blew the roof off of the chicken coop and we are seeing the chickens come home to roost.
.....Do you think there is room for meaningful change to any aspect of your government, regardless of where you are? Who and how are you going to contact, not with your complaints and condemnation, but with your desire and demand for improvement? What are you going to DO to make something happen?

[rabbit]

:box:

Let me begin by saying that I am a Hurricane Andrew survivor. I know what it is like to have your world turned upside down in a major way.

Katrina has taught me to look HARD for things to be thankful for. Yeah, we were thankful to be alive and for our house to still be standing...even if a good part of the roof was trashed. But we also had dry land under our feet. I cannot imagine how much worse things could have gotten had we the flooding that the folks in Gulf got.

It took FEMA and the other state/local agencies time to get assistance to those in need after Andrew hit. They were maybe a day faster than they were in New Orleans...no water to deal with may be reason they were faster...but they also had a smaller geographical area to deal with.

I'm NOT a FEMA apologist. People died in the aftermath of Katrina, people that would have been saved if there had been help sooner.

BUT THE TIME TO HAVE SAVED THEM WAS BEFORE THE STORM HIT. Once all hell breaks loose, it is just too damned hard to get to everyone who needs help all at once.

In the case of Katrina, just take out a detailed map and look hard at it. You'll get the shivers just trying to comprehend how to help that many towns and ALL OF THE PEOPLE IN THEM in a reasonable period of time.

A nuclear bomb wouldn't have impacted that much land.

IMO, a more comprehensive EVACUATION PLAN is what's needed...especially for those without the means to flee. Also, a BETTER flood prevention system...local officials are to blame for that colossal failure, not FEMA.

As for those taking shots at the President for the slow relief, some of it is fair, some not. Unless there's more to the story, Mike Brown is seriously underqualified. But the President is not a racist, as idiots like Kanye West and Al Sharpton have claimed. Outrageous comments like that are simply the stuff of radicalism and are not helpful.

Americans (and maybe the world) need to come to grips with the fact that this is one of the great human disasters in history. Was anyone truly prepared for it? No. Could anyone be truly prepared for it? I don't know.

After what Andrew taught me, I just don't know....


rabbit

[LixyChick]

Peeps...PEEPS! Love is like oxygen. Ya get too much, ya get too high. Not enough and you're gonna die!

/me passes out the love in small doses and makes everyone consume it and then go get back in line! :rofl:

Damn PF! So YOU got my soapbox, eh?

Let me start by quoting a most famous cliche'..."Hindsight is 20/20"...and everyone on this planet should make a conscious effort to have the necessary hindsight BEFORE the disaster (pick one...any one) happens! :hair:

ANYONE can be an armchair referee or a Monday morning coach! What "we" have to realize is that we HAVE to learn from our mistakes/tradgedies or we are doomed to repeat them!

Blah! Enough with the cliches'...I'm sure you get my drift.

*sucks up some oxygen...ie: :x: PF* (<---you all know he's gonna have a field day with that statement)

I think this thread is mostly about trust and indifference. If I'm wrong...I'll eat my bra!

We have/had information as to what a cat4 hurricane could do to La. Did we trust the scientists who made a mock-up, via computer enhancement, of the destruction such a force would yield? NO! Why? Indifference of what "could be" as opposed to what we aready trusted "always was" in the past. Do we ever truely believe something bad is going to happen? NO! We trust that we have capable minds and hands at the ready for any given situation that arises.

That leads me to PF's reference of jobs going to the one who isn't necessarily qualified. We have to start at the highest level and understand the trickle-down effect. If you vote for Mr./Mrs./Ms. X (yes...I didn't mention him by name on purpose)...you vote for all the idiots (<--personal opinion) he/she knows and owes...and it's YOUR fault that they have the job cause you didn't do your homework and find out who his/her associates are and who might "get in" when he/she was elected! I feel NO GUILT for the current administration because I didn't cast my vote for any of um! I must admit...I have had guilt (in hindsight) in the past fore voting for some of the peeps who eventually trickled down a collage of idiots...but that's another era! Anyway...therein lies the indifference I spoke of earlier. Ya like a candidate but you're indifferent to who he/she might drag into his/her administration! You can't bitch if you didn't do your homework!

So what are we left with? Well...as usual, we pick up the pieces and we go on about our merry way of trust and indifference. Or, we earnestly learn from our current mistakes and vow to take charge and change the future!

I can't say as I know who will actually do that and I can't say as I know how to tell them to do it...EXCEPT to say...

Do your homework BEFORE the election...NOT AFTER THE DISASTER!

WHEW!

*jumps down off the box and passes it to the next in line*

[rabbit]

Do your homework BEFORE the election...NOT AFTER THE DISASTER!


Bill Clinton could have been President and the end result wouldn't have been much different. Blaming George Bush is too easy an answer, especially for those who are against him.

The complete truth is that a LOT of people in leadership roles, at ALL levels of gov't (regardless of party) didn't listen to the scientists and didn't proactively plan or act (or FUND).

A lot of people would still be dead today because trying to help that many of them spread out over such a large area after the fact is a logistical nightmare that no one was ready for.

Perhaps the people of North California should start thinking about what to do when the "big one" hits them, as scientists continue to predict. Now's the time to plan, not after everything has been shaken apart.

[Lilith]

My understanding is that FEMA was usurped into Homeland Security and that it was made perfectly clear that a minimum of 75% of the funds allocated to Homeland Security were to be spent on actively fighting terrorism. And that this left little for the other types of risks our country faces. I have heard that FEMA as an agency had been stripped essentially to bare bones.

Not sure where the blame falls or frankly if I even give a shit. I just know that no one can help us recover from this better than us. The American people.

[gekkogecko]

The problem with outrage at corruption is that it is itself a political tool.

So true, and but the basic problem is that the whole system is shot in the first place. It's not that the system broke down; it's that the system was basically designed to fail. Remember, the basic function of government is to keep the rich and/or powerful in their positions of wealth & power. Fuck the common people.


Katrina blew the roof off of the chicken coop and we are seeing the chickens come home to roost.

Yes, but if you want to keep this analogy, then any idea that the whole rotten coop is anything but rotten is counting your chickens before they hatch.

[jseal]

...the basic function of government is to keep the rich and/or powerful in their positions of wealth & power...

gekkogecko,

Not everyone would agree with you.

The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,


When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal…

…That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed…

[osuche]

Perhaps the people of North California should start thinking about what to do when the "big one" hits them, as scientists continue to predict. Now's the time to plan, not after everything has been shaken apart.


I recently received a pdf handbook on what to do in case of earthquake....I think people here are preparing for that eventuality

[jseal]

I recently received a pdf handbook on what to do in case of earthquake...

osuche,

Interesting. Is that effort a local, state, or federal initiative?

[Booger]

Bill Clinton could have been President and the end result wouldn't have been much different. Blaming George Bush is too easy an answer, especially for those who are against him.

But if Bill was President it would have still happened but it would be just the other party point the finger at him. Most likely they would have got ken star on him trying to prove the not only the lack of help was his fault they would want to blame Katrina on him too.
In reality that what our poltical system has become insted of pointing out your or your party good point point out the other perties bad. One has to wonder if this is because neither of the parties have any good point to point out.

[gekkogecko]

Not everyone would agree with you.

…That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed…
[/COLOR]

That's all verynice, Jseal, but I was speaking from a "this is the reality" point of view, not from a "Here's the propaganda we'll espouse to the masses" point of view.

To whit, once the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America had fulfilled it purpose in justifying the rebellion against "duly constituted" authority, the document itself was basically run over with a steamroller, first when the US was incorporated under the Articles of Confederation (ever read that one? That's not something that *any* history course I've ever seen or experienced paid much attention to), and then later under the Constitution.

[jseal]

gekkogecko,

You may, of course, be correct, time will tell, but as the number of representative democracies has grown since that document first saw light, and continues to grow to the present, including the first ever contested Egyptian presidential election held this last Wednesday, I’d guess that reality has been more than a little unkind to those who have held different opinions.

Over the last 229 years, the ideals found in this document of human liberation have weathered many internal crises, and have withstood the intellectual competition of Monarchy, Fascism, Communism, and also runs like Theocracy.

Yes, I have read the Articles of Confederation (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/artconf.htm), which became the ruling document of the nation after they were ratified by the last of the 13 American states, Maryland, in 1781, and am also aware why they were superseded by the current Constitution of the United States (http://www.law.emory.edu/FEDERAL/usconst.html).

For what it is worth, the principle problem with the Articles was that Congress was too severely limited in its powers. It could not raise money by collecting taxes; it had no control over foreign commerce; it could pass laws but could not force the states to comply with them. The central government thus constituted was dependent on the willingness of the various states to carry out its measures, and often the states refused to cooperate. Another crippling difficulty was that the articles were virtually impossible to amend, so problems could not be corrected.

In the words of George Washington, the government created by the Articles of the Confederation was "little more than the shadow without the substance".

Note also that the preamble of the U.S. Constitution reads “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

In both the Declaration and the Constitution People come before the State.

[PantyFanatic]

:box: Let me begin by saying that I am a Hurricane Andrew survivor……..…BUT THE TIME TO HAVE SAVED THEM WAS BEFORE THE STORM HIT. ….….IMO, a more comprehensive EVACUATION PLAN is what's needed.…. Also, a BETTER flood prevention system...local officials are to blame for that colossal failure, not FEMA. …Unless there's more to the story, Mike Brown is seriously underqualified. But the President is not a racist, as idiots like Kanye West and Al Sharpton have claimed. Outrageous comments like that are simply the stuff of radicalism and are not helpful. ……. Was anyone truly prepared for it? No. Could anyone be truly prepared for it? I don't know.....
People like you Rabbit, are the ones that have the insight and knowledge in dealing with such an event. My concern is that the games of politics, as you have pointed out, are the PROBLEM! The absolute need to have people of competence in positions of responsibility is the utmost issue. NOT the game playing they keep pulling us into. The only thing I can repeat is …..
...Finger pointing and ass-covering is well underway now that functional people are doing their part to help those in distress. I’m looking for a way to keep the pressure actually focused on improving the necessary evils of ALL the bureaucracies and minimize the antics of the political circus that I believe is going to take center ring. .....

[Steph]

Note also that the preamble of the U.S. Constitution reads “We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility , provide for the common defense, , promote the general Welfare and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

Things sure are tranquil right now, eh? The welfare of many citizens was promoted?

It reminds me of the signs on the schoolyard closest to my apartment. They read "No Dogs Allowed" but it's the most popular place for people to take their dogs.

I've got to stress gekko's point about the reality of the situation. As much as people would like to call on quotes from Washington and from the Constitution, the affected citizens needed a leaner bureaucracy, easy on the fat/cronyism. I doubt many in the Houston Astrodome are seeking solace in the Constitution right now.

[Lilith]

In both the Declaration and the Constitution People come before the State.

As long as they were not black or women....


The Constitution was not even written with their interest in mind, was it? Why would anyone ever seek solace in a document that was never meant to protect them or their rights?

[PantyFanatic]

…. ANYONE can be an armchair referee or a Monday morning coach! What "we" have to realize is that we HAVE to learn from our mistakes/tradgedies or we are doomed to repeat them!…… I think this thread is mostly about trust and indifference. If I'm wrong...I'll eat my bra!…. Did we trust the scientists … NO! Why? … Do we ever truely believe something bad is going to happen? NO! We trust that we have capable minds and hands at the ready for any given situation that arises.
That leads me to PF's reference of jobs going to the one who isn't necessarily qualified. We have to start at the highest level and understand the trickle-down effect....you vote for all the idiots … he/she knows and owes...and it's YOUR fault that they have the job ..... who eventually trickled down a collage of idiots.… You can't bitch if you didn't do your homework!…... we go on about our merry way of trust and indifference. Or, we earnestly learn from our current mistakes and vow to take charge and change the future!
....Do your homework BEFORE the election...NOT AFTER THE DISASTER!..

You are right that this is about blind faith and indifference Lixy. :) …and for being right………… I get to eat your panties :D

You are spot on that when we put somebody in office you know they are going to fill the ranks with THEIR people. The whole topic here is that they have to start filling the positions of responsibility with people that are qualified and not more politicians. There are knowledgeable people of every persuasion and philosophy. It is a case of defining the line of bureaucracy capable people. These can not be more politicians at the head of something that has to perform.

Anybody that remembers the TV series WKRP recalls “handle it, handle it”. We have to MAKE the Mr. Carlson’s put the Andy Travis’s in place.



I think I need some more of that special oxygen again Lixy. :faint:
:lust:

[PantyFanatic]

...The complete truth is that a LOT of people in leadership roles, at ALL levels of gov't (regardless of party) didn't listen to the scientists and didn't proactively plan or act (or FUND).....
That’s the FIRST place we must start with. The heads of ALL the MANY duties of government must be able managers and focused on the mission of the post and not the political objectives of the spin players. Katrina has given us the Ying and Yang model that we BETTER take to heart for everything from garbage collection to defending the country from hostility on the very basic level. We are not talking about even attempting top make improvements for our people or bettering the specie. We are demanding the foundations that allows the people to survive and peruse an existence that lets us work for a better life for ourselves and our descendants.

[PantyFanatic]

....Not sure where the blame falls or frankly if I even give a shit. I just know that no one can help us recover from this better than us. The American people.
You are right that this is not about blame. The obvious will be in front of us and they will continue to play their games like cheap magicians with their slight of hand. That IS their one and only expertise. It WILL be the people that overcomes this disaster and it will only be the people that force a change by SHOUTING that we see what the other hand is doing.

[PantyFanatic]

… It's not that the system broke down; it's that the system was basically designed to fail. Remember, the basic function of government is to keep the rich and/or powerful in their positions of wealth & power. Fuck the common people.
Yes, but if you want to keep this analogy, then any idea that the whole rotten coop is anything but rotten is counting your chickens before they hatch.
I don’t believe it was designed to fail, but it IS the function of the rich & powerful to stay rich & powerful and using the government is the best way to ensure that happens. …… and that is FARRRRRRRRRRR from new. I’m not counting chickens before they’re hatched, but I do recognize the fox in the henhouse.

[PantyFanatic]

I recently received a pdf handbook on what to do in case of earthquake....I think people here are preparing for that eventuality
There is no question that many conscientious civil servants are working for us, but it is the their management that CANNOT be allowed to be filled with ignorant ‘Old Boys’ ….. or ‘Old Girls’. I know you are well aware that good management of anything consists of careful planning, implementation, monitoring and review.

[PantyFanatic]

…In reality that what our poltical system has become insted of pointing out your or your party good point point out the other perties bad. One has to wonder if this is because neither of the parties have any good point to point out.
It’s the game of politics that that has become the end goal instead of the means to serving the people.

[PantyFanatic]

… I was speaking from a "this is the reality" point of view, not from a "Here's the propaganda we'll espouse to the masses" point of view.
To whit, once the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America had fulfilled it purpose in justifying the rebellion against "duly constituted" authority, the document itself was basically run over with a steamroller, first when the US was incorporated under the Articles of Confederation … and then later under the Constitution.
Your point is well taken Gekko. The ideals set down on paper are goals and guidelines to strive for and work with, but the manipulators of words seldom do so with the same goals in mind. They guard the palace but it’s not supposed to be from us. The subject here is separating the rhetoric of the politician from the objective they were put in place for. That seems to take an ax and a shovel in most cases.

[PantyFanatic]

Things sure are tranquil right now, eh? The welfare of many citizens was promoted?…..I've got to stress gekko's point about the reality of the situation. As much as people would like to call on quotes from Washington and from the Constitution, the affected citizens needed a leaner bureaucracy, easy on the fat/cronyism. I doubt many in the Houston Astrodome are seeking solace in the Constitution right now.
As much as it pains me to agree with HER, ^^^^ :rolleyes2 that sums up what this whole thing is concerning: the difference in the BS of politics and the realities of life. Katrina laid open the deep rooted status that permeates ALL levels of the systems and it is OUR responsibility to demand more competence.

[jseal]

As long as they were not black or women....

Lilith,

This criticism may be generalized as “What is a citizen” or “What is a human”. This is an example of what I was referring to as an internal crisis.

If the changing notion of what constitutes a human or a citizen could not be integrated into the structure of the ideals of democracy; if democracy could not move beyond the concept that a citizen had to be a free male real estate owner, then democracy would take a place in the Museum of Antiqued Ideas. That has not happened.

The philosophical underpinnings of the Declaration and the rather more practical foundation of the Constitution were not broken when the definitions of human and citizen changed. Ref Constitutional Amendments, 13, 15, 19, 26

As I recall, there was much bruhahah about the issues at the time.

[gekkogecko]

The subject here is separating the rhetoric of the politician from the objective they were put in place for. That seems to take an ax and a shovel in most cases.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! See, you get it!

[jseal]

Steph,

I will agree with you and all who call for a more efficient and effective local, state and federal bureaucracy. It is difficult to think why anyone would wish otherwise.

To extrapolate from the observed problems surrounding Hurricane Katrina and conclude that “…the basic function of government is to keep the rich and/or powerful in their positions of wealth & power…” is an intellectual leap too great for someone with my many limitations. Even those with whom I share only a few opinions seem also to demur at such challenging claims (see above).

I also feel that there is a higher probability of real, lifesaving change available through the ballot box than by raising one’s voice to ever higher decibels. The game of politics has always been the goal of politicians; that is their profession. I believe that on this item there is a general consensus. How to refocus their attention to substantive issues seems to be immediate. LixyChick’s proposal that the electorate examine the candidates “before the election…not after the disaster” seems particularly useful to this end. I note concurrence with satisfaction.

The only other useful tool that comes to mind in regards to improving these services is the Court system. The various and sundry government agencies are often bound by law to perform certain duties. The occasional court order can help them remember forgotten commitments. Not being overly active (other than at the ballot box) in matters environmental, I am skating on thin ice here, but I am under the impression the “environmental movement” has found the Federal Bench a useful tool in compelling the EPA to execute Congress’s will, even in the face of Administration resistance. Perhaps gekkogecko may be able to shine additional light on the subject.

[Steph]

To extrapolate from the observed problems surrounding Hurricane Katrina and conclude that “…the basic function of government is to keep the rich and/or powerful in their positions of wealth & power…” is an intellectual leap too great for someone with my many limitations. Even those with whom I share only a few opinions seem also to demur at such challenging claims (see above).


Oh come now. Surely you don't expect us to believe that you believe you're limited intellectually ?

See Dick Cheney's gains in wealth from his position of power re: contracts in Iraq & Katrina & gekko's glib post doesn't seem as wacky as you purport it to be, old chap.

[PantyFanatic]

As long as they were not black or women....
The Constitution was not even written with their interest in mind, was it? Why would anyone ever seek solace in a document that was never meant to protect them or their rights?
Perhaps it’s time that a bluntly stated FACT is not dimensioned by bombastic blitherings from the elitist level.

[jseal]

PantyFanatic,

Please don't be discourteous.

[jseal]

Steph,

Since the time of St. Thomas Aquinas, silence has implied assent. As you have limited your comments to the Vice Presidents’ purported financial gains in business he is implied as manipulating, and my lamentable smarts, I conclude that we agree upon the rest. A notable achievement; I am pleased.

If acceptance of preposterous claims is the sine qua non of intellectual ability, I regret that I will be sidelined from discussing matters of substance; relegated to the minor role of pointing out that the Emperor is indeed in need of apparel.

While it may be true that Vice President Cheney is manipulating various and sundry events to his financial gain, I have yet to see any evidence to support the assertion. In addition, I believe that it is common practice for those filling cabinet level positions and higher to place their portfolios into what are referred to as “blind trusts” during the term of their office, over which they relinquish control. Has this not happened in this case? It would likely force his resignation if the claim were true.

[PantyFanatic]

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes! See, you get it!
I’ve gotten it for too long. A way to demand a change is what I’m looking for. We know the ballet box is a tool of THEIR domain. It’s not a means of getting through to them.

[PantyFanatic]

…. See Dick Cheney's gains in wealth from his position of power re: contracts in Iraq & Katrina & gekko's glib post doesn't seem as wacky as you purport it to be, old chap.
I wish ALL the profits and security that came solely from holding elected office were as visible. Maybe more attention would be paid to what is happening.

[Kaelynn]

Ok everyone, here is something I have been thinking since this whole thing started... Why are we so focused on finger pointing?

I Agree with Lilith, Originally Posted by Lilith
"....Not sure where the blame falls or frankly if I even give a shit. I just know that no one can help us recover from this better than us. The American people."

And Rabbit, you said everything I was thinking when I started reading this.

I was Soo Turned off when this hurricane turned into a racial issue that I stopped watching. I am so sick of that even being an issue. I have friends and family that went down and tried to help out, and guess what their helicoptors were shot at. Why isn't/wasn't the media showing that there are people trying to help? Sorry but my oppinion is there are ignorant people all around and there has been and always will be, cause the simple fact remains that everyone can't be educated the same or have the same opportunities. There are people that are rich, there are people that are poor. It is a fact of life.

The ones that succeed are the ones that work hard and put their mind to something and get it done. You can only be successful if you want to be, and truely try. And there are all kinds of different levels of sucess, it is in the eyes of the beholder. You are happy when you make yourself happy.

And here is when I will step up on my soap box. I am sick and tired of hearing how bad our goverment is, and how they don't help. They don't have to help. Be happy about where you live. Be thankful for the privleges you have! There are few that are as lucky as us. Yes there is corruption, there is in every government somewhere. But what I would like to say is that the government doesn't have to help.... they could turn a deaf ear. Besides this... we are the ones that elect them into the position, you wanna get someone better, elect someone better.

I am just happy that I don't live somewhere where I have to hide my face to walk down the street. That I can drive my car whereever I want. That I can have the same job as any man, (Mind you there are still limitations but this has VASTLY improved.) I can own property as a woman. I can vote. I make decisions about what I want to do with my money.

God Bless the USA. There are things I want to change about this country, but I have to say we are the most privledged in the world and more people need to realize that.

Americans will help the victims it's what we do.

Okay... *steps off* well I think this just might be my most contraversal thread I have every written to....

[sodaklostsoul]

Nope...not gonna open my mouth!!

/me leaves to go work on cleaning the childs room some more.

[Steph]

There are people that are rich, there are people that are poor. It is a fact of life.

The ones that succeed are the ones that work hard and put their mind to something and get it done. You can only be successful if you want to be, and truely try. And there are all kinds of different levels of sucess, it is in the eyes of the beholder. You are happy when you make yourself happy.

You have to realize, Kaelynn, not everyone has had such an easy life (and I'm not saying your life is easy but you are in college which is an honour -- not everyone is able to go).

To say that all you have to do is put your mind to it and you can get things done, you can be happy . . . it's not reality quite frankly. Many people in New Orleans had no access to vehicles. Many Americans live paycheque to paycheque and it's impossible to budget for such emergencies.

And you mentioned that the government didn't have to help. Why is that? The people who were stranded pay the same taxes as everyone else. Why are they paying taxes? If you were on a roof for five days, would you think differently?

[Kaelynn]

I would ask myself why the fuck am I on this roof and what am I going to do to get myself off...

[Steph]

The head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, Michael Brown,
stands down following criticism of the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.

[Steph]

I would ask myself why the fuck am I on this roof and what am I going to do to get myself off...

No car, no money, no boat . . . now what?

[Kaelynn]

Guess I am swimming to dry land...

[Steph]

Now why didn't everyone else do that? It's the answer!

[Kaelynn]

Please don't get me wrong, I am sensitive to the fact that not everyone had the means or way to get out. I honestly understand that, but if there is a hurricane coming don't you think you would walk, run, hitch a ride, or do SOMETHING to get out?

I can't stand the thought that 30 people drowned in a nursing home... now there is a true case where you couldn't do anything... and it is damned pathetic family didn't take care of them, or someone BEFOREHAND!!!

What does everyone expect us to do after??? People have to realize it takes time to get help somewhere... asembling, then clearing roads and getting there takes time... And it doesn't help when people shoot at the help that is coming in Helicopter

[jseal]

Kaelynn,

If one might describe Hurricane Katrina as a disaster, and if one might describe a disaster as an event causing widespread destruction and distress, then there will be victims. It has been my experience that when people want to be angry for some reason, they often pick someone (else) to blame for the misfortune at hand.

Can the various disaster relief agencies be improved? Probably. Will they be improved? Only if useful pressure is applied to those who can effect the change. I suspect that most of us agree with LixyChick & Lilith that the solution must originate with us. I think that the polls and the courts are our best bets; some have suggested other techniques (in jest I hope).

As and when there are no more disasters, there will be no more victims or survivors. Until then, there will always be hard choices about how to spend a finite amount of money on an infinite number of demands. I suspect that even were we able to call upon the wisdom of Solon, someone would remain dissatisfied.

[BIBI]

You’re quite right about ineptitude not being limited. Back in the ‘80s, there was an enjoyable sitcom which ran on the BBC titled Yes Minister (http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/guide/articles/y/yesminister_7777145.shtml)

How about this quote:

"…needed to know was not known at the time that the now known need to know was known, and therefore those of us who needed to advise and inform felt that the information that we needed as to whether or not to inform the highest authority of the known information was not yet known, and therefore there was no authority for the authority to be informed because the need to know was not yet known, or needed."


That show and the one following when Hacker became Prime Minister is one of the best satires on government....it is still on reruns in Canada.

[Steph]

I suspect that even were we able to call upon the wisdom of Solon, someone would remain dissatisfied.

Ahahaha, my dog, Solon, wouldn't have helped too much, I fear. :D

I hear you, Kaelynn. The sad fact remains a lot of people who were stranded in NO don't watch the news, don't read the papers and really had no way out. You have to understand poverty -- some people have been living below the poverty line for generations and, for better or worse, rely on government aid.

Sometimes I am pissed at seeing people in my 'hood buy crack with their welfare cheques and then go to the food bank as soon as the money's gone but we protect them, again for better or worse. I would not want to see them stranded on a roof top for five days while the leader of my country was playing guitar at some white collar fundraiser.

jseal,

I am not dissatisfied per se. Officials knew it was coming, the FEMA budget was cut, money is being poured into Iraq and officials didn't acknowledge the slowness of events until it was too late, IMHO.

Please check out Salon's "Reporters Gone Wild" video: http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2005/09/07/reporter_gone_wild/index_np.html

(You can get a free pass to watch it without registering -- you just have to watch a 10-second flash video).

It shows the media finally stepping up to question officials & shows the denial heard from many politicians immediately after the disaster.

[jseal]

...It shows the media finally stepping up to question officials & shows the denial heard from many politicians immediately after the disaster.

Steph,

Good. Keeping the issue exposed will also help. We are always electing someone here, so the longer the issue remains current, the greater the likelihood of substantive change.

[Steph]

Steph,

Good. Keeping the issue exposed will also help. We are always electing someone here, so the longer the issue remains current, the greater the likelihood of substantive change.

True. But it might not be wise to ask Solon the Lab for help. Sorry, couldn't let that one go. It's rare that someone knows Solon the lawmaker, rarer still that I can use it in a joke, pathetic it may be.

[jseal]

Steph,

Please don't tell me that you have a cat named Croesus! :eek:

[Steph]

Steph,

Please don't tell me that you have a cat named Croesus! :eek:

:rofl:

I do want a cat . . . I think I have his name! :thumb:

[calihotguy]

Be careful, my own little rant.

Meritocracy - the belief that one's success is determined by the strength of their merits (i.e. success is only a matter of how hard you try).

An example to think about in reading the above statement.

In Los Angeles in the 1950s, all the jobs were in downtown and so were the homes of the richest people in LA. At the time, lobbyists from car , oil, and tire companies were upset, that in the early 1950s, the nation as a whole, but specifically LA with its thriving red car trolley system, were turning to cheaper and less industry friendly forms of public transportation. So, in response, these lobbyists pressured officials in LA (and to a lesser extent in places like Boston, Philadelphia, and Chicago) to abandon funding for public transportation (specifically LA's red car), but instead invest in highways...highways, which as the only means of access to the central parts of LA which carried all the jobs, would force anyone who didn't live near these said desired areas(the poor) to buy cars, tires, and of course, oil (gas). This trend continued for 20 to 30 years until the late 70's and mid-80s when large cities, because of population density, the oil scare, and traffic cocerns reinvested in public transportation.

Some questions to think about:
- Who do politicians listen to, the rich or the poor? Do most politicians come from wealth or poverty, and in any case, where do they get their constituency from (campaign funding)?

- If you have no money and have become reliant on public transportation, can you afford a car (tires, gas, etc., remember cars were much less affordable back then too)? Were the rich whose homes were located in these areas happy about the poor having such easy access?

- Even if you are educated, if you have no means of getting to a job every day, could you get the job or keep it? Do you think the nepotism-centered rich wanted to help these potential competitors for said lucrative jobs?

Now think of the result in present day.

Next, you're somewhat limited but most people would say all you have to do is educate yourself and opportunities come your way. Ok, let's look at the educational system in the US.

In California, like many other states, a public school district's funding is based on the taxes paid by those who live in that district (i.e. a school will get more money if the school is located in a rich area, and less money if located in a poor area). Think about what more money means to a school versus less.

More Money:
1) New and up to date books (better classes and more prepared for college courses)
2) Educational resources (such as computers) and better facilities (installs a feeling of hope and enjoyment in an educational environment).
3) More teachers who are also better paid, thus smaller class sizes (more personal attention and a more innovative/motivated level of instruction).
4) Overall environment of success (College is not an option, it is a requirement. This is simply due to available resources, good teachers telling you have to go, and peer pressure).

Less Money:
1) Out of date text books (likely no AP classes and therefore, no AP tests...even the advance classes might not compare to other schools).
2) Worse facilities (contributes to apathy and depression of current circumstances they might find themselves in) and lack of educational resources (these kids, unlike the ones above, probably don't have computers at home and the ones at school are either out of date or non-existent).
3) Less teachers who are also underpaid and larger class sizes (teachers with less experience tend to initially go to the worse schools because they are less in demand), thus less personal attention (fits right into NO Child Left Behind, because it is easier to teach someone to pass a test than it is to teach someone life skills and how to learn, i.e. a worse education with the only goal being to superficially boost graduation rates).
4) Overall environment of failure (generally, because of the limited resources, many child do not see the value of high school, but see it simply as a way to prolong childhood knowing there is nothing better for them once the graduate or simply a waste of time when the jobs they might look for would be illegal as a way of making quick money to afford the things MTV tells them they have to have. Many aren't aware college is an option, or even if aware of it, don't think there was any way they could get in or even how to do so).

What four-year universities look for:
- High GPA (likely above a 4.0, which can only be achieved through AP classes which many poor high schools do not have)
- Extra curricular activities (many times these are afforded by the school itself, a poor school would not offer as many...even if they did, many kids in poorer areas must work to help their families, meaning no time for such activities)
- High SAT scores: The SAT combines applied knowledge with analytical thinking, which can only be taught....when you are taught only to pass a test (such as in No Child Left Behind), you don't learn the knowledge nor how to do proper inner analysis. NCLB often does not apply in wealthier schools simply because their graduation rates and pass rates have always been good.
- The school itself: Many do not realize colleges have set up a ranking system for school districts and often grades candidates based on the competition at their high school. For example, if you go to a good school where more is demanded of you, a college might see a 3.5 GPA as a relative 4.0. However, if you go to a bad school, a college might see a 4.0 GPA as a relative 3.0 compared to the better schools.

The above is simply one scenario of millions, so think about it and figure it out for yourself what implications only this one scenario has on meritocracy, class struggle, and the position many of those in Katrina found themselves in.

[Steph]

Ooh, calihotguy!!! I love your rant!

I will reread it but I'll just mention the richest 'hood in Toronto. My boyfriend works there as a chef and has takes the bus there (after a bus/subway transfer). The richies of Rosedale petitioned to have that bus route removed not too long ago and thankfully lost.

Actually, in a way I would have liked to have seen the route removed and observed the ivory towered Rosedalians clean their own houses and cook their own freaking meals. Their houses would have been dirty & their stomachs empty but goddammit, they wouldn't have to listen to that bus every once in a while!!!

And, I will add that my po' 'hood has all the old, crappy buses. Guess which 'hood has the best ones?

[calihotguy]

It’s hard to understand how different life is when you are standing at the top of a mountain versus being buried under it. It is not a case of someone having it tough and so they could get over it as many of us do. I am stating a circumstance that goes far beyond having it tough; it is about trying to outthink a system that was invented to protect the powers of those who created it, inherently crushing any who attempt to gain power (the poor) from those who posses it (the rich).

This is a government not elected by the people, but elected and determined by the rich, whom naturally are listened and placated to by such officials being their primary constituency. Applying this to the context of Katrina and other government failures, it is obvious these situations are not about race. They are about class. Race is simply a more visible scapegoat than economic class because being a minority and being poor is often synonymous (mostly due to US history and its legacies, not because of current discrimination policies or racist implications).

The innate definition of a government is to represent, protect, and support its people, especially for the limited amount of people who find themselves with an inability or a limited ability to do so for themselves. To the extent and the lengths a government fulfills it's duties, in a democracy, is limited by how we choose our representatives, how we elect them, and how we vote on ballot measures.

For these problems, I INDIRECTLY assign a large portion of blame to our government and those whom financially support it. I do so primarily because of the loop holes in campaign financing (thus allowing political and corporate corruption and domination) and the obvious conflict of interest of the American media in not fairly representing the interests of its audience.

However, I DIRECTLY blame those who elected our government; those who do not educate themselves, ask questions, and simply listen to what their told or allow themselves to be complacent with the obvious choices. To an even greater extent, I also blame the 50% of the population who never represent themselves in deciding their own fate by taking the 5 minutes necessary to cast a ballot once every four years...not a lot to ask just so your own interests can be served.

Yes, I am a liberal...although a moderate one.

[rabbit]

But if Bill was President it would have still happened but it would be just the other party point the finger at him. Most likely they would have got ken star on him trying to prove the not only the lack of help was his fault they would want to blame Katrina on him too.
In reality that what our poltical system has become insted of pointing out your or your party good point point out the other perties bad. One has to wonder if this is because neither of the parties have any good point to point out.


Very true!

[rabbit]

I recently received a pdf handbook on what to do in case of earthquake....I think people here are preparing for that eventuality


(((osuche)))

Please be careful!

[PantyFanatic]

..……I was Soo Turned off when this hurricane turned into a racial issue ....… their helicoptors were shot at. …. There are people that are rich, there are people that are poor. …The ones that succeed are the ones that work hard …...I am sick and tired of hearing how bad our goverment is, … .I would like to say is that the government doesn't have to help.... they could turn a deaf ear. … we are the ones that elect them into the position, you wanna get someone better, elect someone better.…….. God Bless the USA. There are things I want to change about this country…..
Americans will help the victims it's what we do. .....
I too was sickened to find opportunistic bystanders waiving their flags of cause and criticism while Rome was still burning. I hold them in equal esteem as the ones shooting at the rescuers.
A chance to affect our individual status is what made America the land of opportunity. You are right that it was the ones that recognized this chance and worked to do it that succeeded. As has been mentioned in this thread, it was more selective as to whom that was, but thankfully has been greatly widened. Many more complex aspects than race and gender still need to be dealt with.
The only thing I cannot agree with is our government not having the PRIMARY duty of responding to the needs of its’ people. To me, that is a governments ONLY duty, the ONLY reason for its’ existence and the ONLY reason we vest it with authority over us and pay the means for it to provide and protect us where it is not practical or possible for the individual to do alone. A government has NO OTHER reason to exist. Anything else is oppression! It not recognizing this single basic fact is my present concern. When the people that are entrusted to do this, view it as being about the people in office, is when it ceases do the job.
My prospective is not about which politician is elected. You are going to have a politician regardless. Politicians are NOT the people that DO anything! We need to ask them to stop playing politics long enough to get people that ARE capable of doing a job, into the positions of responsibility, rather than as rewards for to political activity.
You are right that it Americans that will help Americans and it is Americans that will do it with or with it’s government. And it will be Americans that will make it’s governments at ALL levels, ones that are “OF the people, BY the people and FOR the people”.

[PantyFanatic]

Nope...not gonna open my mouth!!

/me leaves to go work on cleaning the childs room some more.
/me enjoys the view of SDLSs’ walkaway. :lust:

[PantyFanatic]

That show and the one following when Hacker became Prime Minister is one of the best satires on government....it is still on reruns in Canada.
We already know you get all the good stuff. :(

You have Red Green. :rolleyes2

[Steph]

Speaking of people shooting at 'copters, did anyone hear why that was going on? I know no reason would ever be good enough but I was wondering about the mentality. Were they afraid they'd be forcibly removed from their homes?

[BigBear57]

Steph my first thought was how many mentally ill have been off meds since the flood and are now living in delusionary worlds?

[jseal]

BigBear57,

Interesting! I'd never have thought of that. Plausible.

[Steph]

Good point, BigBear! You'd think that would have been my first thought living in this 'hood! I saw a big guy in an involved conversation with an imaginary person yesterday.

"How many cops do you think it would take to subdue him?", my friend pondered.

[scotzoidman]

Good point, BigBear! You'd think that would have been my first thought living in this 'hood! I saw a big guy in an involved conversation with an imaginary person yesterday.

"How many cops do you think it would take to subdue him?", my friend pondered.
She's lyin'! Harvey & I were nowhere near steph's 'hood yesterday...

[WildIrish]

She's lyin'! Harvey & I were nowhere near steph's 'hood yesterday...



:grin:

[sodaklostsoul]

She's lyin'! Harvey & I were nowhere near steph's 'hood yesterday...
Hmmm does Harvey have a brother? :rofl:

[Kaelynn]

Speaking of people shooting at 'copters, did anyone hear why that was going on? I know no reason would ever be good enough but I was wondering about the mentality. Were they afraid they'd be forcibly removed from their homes?

You know what I started thinking about... maybe they weren't shooting at the helecoptors.... cause not one of them got hit. Maybe they were shooting to let people know they were there and needed help, maybe they were affraid the help wouldn't find them...

Now mind you, if this is the case the people were not thinking of what the people flying them would think, nor would they consider they might hit the helecopter. But would you be thinking if you were stuck in your attic?

[scotzoidman]

Hmmm does Harvey have a brother? :rofl:
Well, see, Harvey insisted we go down to the Farmer's Market cuz he was outa carrots...

[sodaklostsoul]

Well, see, Harvey insisted we go down to the Farmer's Market cuz he was outa carrots...
Ohhhhhhh I bet Steph likes carrots! :D

[BIBI]

Speaking of people shooting at 'copters, did anyone hear why that was going on? I know no reason would ever be good enough but I was wondering about the mentality. Were they afraid they'd be forcibly removed from their homes?

Pure unadulterated happiness....... :jump:







...in some countries. Not that I'm naming any!

[Steph]

Well, see, Harvey insisted we go down to the Farmer's Market cuz he was outa carrots...


:rofl: Too funny!

[Scarecrow]

You know what I started thinking about... maybe they weren't shooting at the helecoptors.... cause not one of them got hit. Maybe they were shooting to let people know they were there and needed help, maybe they were affraid the help wouldn't find them...

Now mind you, if this is the case the people were not thinking of what the people flying them would think, nor would they consider they might hit the helecopter. But would you be thinking if you were stuck in your attic?


This is the reason I heard from a freind of a freind who is on the NOPD.

[PantyFanatic]

….Meritocracy - the belief that one's success is determined by the strength of their merits ……Some questions to think about:
- Who do politicians listen to, the rich or the poor? Do most politicians come from wealth or poverty, and in any case, where do they get their constituency from (campaign funding)?
- If you have no money and have become reliant on public transportation, can you afford a car … Were the rich whose homes were located in these areas happy about the poor having such easy access?
- Even if you are educated, if you have no means of getting to a job every day, could you get the job or keep it? Do you think the nepotism-centered rich wanted to help these potential competitors for said lucrative jobs?…..Next, you're somewhat limited but most people would say all you have to do is educate yourself and opportunities come your way. …. a public school district's funding is based on the taxes paid by those who live in that district …

More Money:
1) New and up to date books …2) Educational resources ….3) More teachers who are also better paid, …..4) Overall environment of success ….

Less Money:
1) Out of date text books …2) Worse facilities … (these kids, unlike the ones above, probably don't have computers at home and the ones at school are either out of date or non-existent). 3) Less teachers who are also underpaid and larger class sizes ….. it is easier to teach someone to pass a test than it is to teach someone life skills and how to learn,…4) Overall environment of failure ….

What four-year universities look for:
- High GPA …- Extra curricular activities ….- High SAT scores: The SAT combines applied knowledge with analytical thinking, which can only be taught….- The school itself: Many do not realize colleges have set up a ranking system for school districts and often grades candidates based on the competition at their high school…..

The above is simply one scenario of millions, so think about it and figure it out for yourself what implications only this one scenario has on meritocracy, class struggle, and the position many of those in Katrina found themselves in.
I’m so pleased to have a senior Pixie step forward with such a well thought through and presented opinion. :) The dilemma of class struggle is daunting enough when dedicated people of logic and ability are struggling to improve the complex issues. It only becomes more impossible when hampered within a system structure where the seats of decision and authority are filled with the asses of patronage. The events associated with Katrina is going to be debated for a long time and 90% of it will be game playing of rhetorical politics. Does anyone believe that it will not be viewed as a MAJOR political obstruction or opportunity that just has to be shoveled through and buried as soon as possible? Did Katrina form a handle for the people to finally get a hold on that will let you demand some accountability from ALL levels of government?

[jseal]

Historically, elections, not hurricanes, have provided the handle the electorate have used to hold the elected accountable.

They may be an imperfect tool, but they are available to anyone who cares to use them.

[scotzoidman]

I’m so pleased to have a senior Pixie step forward with such a well thought through and presented opinion. :) The dilemma of class struggle is daunting enough when dedicated people of logic and ability are struggling to improve the complex issues. It only becomes more impossible when hampered within a system structure where the seats of decision and authority are filled with the asses of patronage. The events associated with Katrina is going to be debated for a long time and 90% of it will be game playing of rhetorical politics. Does anyone believe that it will not be viewed as a MAJOR political obstruction or opportunity that just has to be shoveled through and buried as soon as possible? Did Katrina form a handle for the people to finally get a hold on that will let you demand some accountability from ALL levels of government?
For me, one small sliver of a silver lining to this overwhelmingly dark cloud of disaster is that, somehow, this finally forced W to hold himself accountable for not doing what was right...a red-letter day in the history of this country in the new century, to be sure...
The subject of natural disasters, how the govt. responds, & how the incompetence of the appointed hacks affects that response reminds me of the story of Chicago some years back...about 1967, Chitown was hit with a major blizzard that paralysed the whole city...the legendary & infamous Mayor Daly, understanding that his political machine couldn't possibly cope with this thing, exhorted residents to pitch in & help themselves out of the mess, which interestingly enough kept him from shoudering the blame for being unable to respond to an emergency...a lesson that was lost on a succeeding administration, after his death, that got hit with another snowstorm, & had no response of any kind to deal with it...that mayor was booted out on her ass in the next election...

[Lilith]

To say hurricanes and other major natural and manmade disasters don't effect elections is preposterous to me, especially considering the impact 911 had on current presidency. How a leader reacts during times of crisis is certainly an area under consideration when people vote.

[jseal]

To say hurricanes and other major natural and manmade disasters don't effect elections is preposterous to me...

Lilith,

Has anyone said that?

[Lilith]

Historically, elections, not hurricanes, have provided the handle the electorate have used to hold the elected accountable.

They may be an imperfect tool, but they are available to anyone who cares to use them.


'Splain it to me then JSeal.

[jseal]

'Splain it to me then JSeal.

Lilith,

How many times have you seen an hurricane in an election booth? :rolleyes2

[Lilith]

LOL well let's see, Camille, Kate, Andrew, Charlie, Katrina :D Oh you mean voting not ransacking ;)

[jseal]

Lilith,

Yes mam, that is what I mean when I say, and said, vote. :)

[LixyChick]

Bill Clinton could have been President and the end result wouldn't have been much different. Blaming George Bush is too easy an answer, especially for those who are against him.

The complete truth is that a LOT of people in leadership roles, at ALL levels of gov't (regardless of party) didn't listen to the scientists and didn't proactively plan or act (or FUND).

A lot of people would still be dead today because trying to help that many of them spread out over such a large area after the fact is a logistical nightmare that no one was ready for.

Perhaps the people of North California should start thinking about what to do when the "big one" hits them, as scientists continue to predict. Now's the time to plan, not after everything has been shaken apart.
Respectfully rabbit...I just don't think Bill Clinton would have had a similar "end result". In all honesty I think Bill Clinton, or just about any other president other than GWB (and I include his father in this determination) would have jumped to the ready and started up efforts of evacuation and repair to the levees well before GWB did. He is commander in chief for shit sake...and could have done so many things so much faster and with more authority! He's just recently proclaimed that he does take the fault for the lack of response...and again in all honesty, this is the first thing he has ever taken responsibility for where it was necessary for the people of this country to hear him say it out loud! If he would just do this a bit more often whenever he fucks up...I might get off his case a bit!

But I have to say (before you get your cute li'l undies inna bunch) that my entire statement wasn't directed just at him...though I may have eluded to it being about him alone. I was also referring to the more local elected officials and to those in the Bush administration who were appointed to their positions without the education and experience for what they were appointed. Sorry...I shoulda been more concise.

About your statement of "a lot of people would still be dead"...I reiterate... I feel in my heart (and from general knowledge of the capability of past leaders) that nearly any other administration would have been more levelheaded just beforehand...calling for a different/better course of action to get those people out before the big hit...and then more authoritative and faster at response of rescue and repair just after the incident. And I don't think as many would have perished with such disinterest and lack of understanding and compassion for a more common folk (no means of escape or place to go when out of harms way) that doesn't fit into the understanding/comprehension of a leader/leaders that seemingly don't care till they are called out for their faults!

AND...I've never known a more disconnected president than GWB! And might I add, his Mom and wife were pretty unrealistic too, with some of their disfunctional statements of the situation. Eeeeek!

Sorry to piss anyone off...but those are my feelings and I can't let it go by that I should feel better about him because some think it is not patriotic of me when I speak out against his actions. He's given "ME" no reason to respect his so called authority. I'm not trying to sway anyones loyalty to him...I'm just stating my thoughts! I'm not a sheep (no WI...this isn't directed to you...lol!) and I'll never be herded by anyone, let alone a leader I don't respect!

I don't need any Amen's to this response...and I swear I ain't looking for anyone to "get my back". I'm NOT trying to cause a ruckus. I'm just stating my thoughts to a response to my reply.

I love ya rabbit...you know that! So, take this as banter back and forth and nothing more...k?

I have a right to my opinion...as does everyone here at Pixies...and so it is said!

[jseal]

LixyChick,

Yes mam, everyone at Pixies has a right to their opinion! Good heavens, what a dull place it would be were we all stampde from the same mold

[scotzoidman]

Respectfully rabbit...I just don't think Bill Clinton would have had a similar "end result". In all honesty I think Bill Clinton, or just about any other president other than GWB (and I include his father in this determination) would have jumped to the ready and started up efforts of evacuation and repair to the levees well before GWB did. He is commander in chief for shit sake...and could have done so many things so much faster and with more authority! He's just recently proclaimed that he does take the fault for the lack of response...and again in all honesty, this is the first thing he has ever taken responsibility for where it was necessary for the people of this country to hear him say it out loud! If he would just do this a bit more often whenever he fucks up...I might get off his case a bit!

But I have to say (before you get your cute li'l undies inna bunch) that my entire statement wasn't directed just at him...though I may have eluded to it being about him alone. I was also referring to the more local elected officials and to those in the Bush administration who were appointed to their positions without the education and experience for what they were appointed. Sorry...I shoulda been more concise.

About your statement of "a lot of people would still be dead"...I reiterate... I feel in my heart (and from general knowledge of the capability of past leaders) that nearly any other administration would have been more levelheaded just beforehand...calling for a different/better course of action to get those people out before the big hit...and then more authoritative and faster at response of rescue and repair just after the incident. And I don't think as many would have perished with such disinterest and lack of understanding and compassion for a more common folk (no means of escape or place to go when out of harms way) that doesn't fit into the understanding/comprehension of a leader/leaders that seemingly don't care till they are called out for their faults!

AND...I've never known a more disconnected president than GWB! And might I add, his Mom and wife were pretty unrealistic too, with some of their disfunctional statements of the situation. Eeeeek!

Sorry to piss anyone off...but those are my feelings and I can't let it go by that I should feel better about him because some think it is not patriotic of me when I speak out against his actions. He's given "ME" no reason to respect his so called authority. I'm not trying to sway anyones loyalty to him...I'm just stating my thoughts! I'm not a sheep (no WI...this isn't directed to you...lol!) and I'll never be herded by anyone, let alone a leader I don't respect!

I don't need any Amen's to this response...and I swear I ain't looking for anyone to "get my back". I'm NOT trying to cause a ruckus. I'm just stating my thoughts to a response to my reply.

I find your assessment pretty much dead on Lixy...the details being that the Homeland Security Act absorbed FEMA & took away much of its funding to do its job, the Iraqi War has hollowed out the National Guard to the point wher they couldn't do their directed mission of keeping the peace in domestic situations, & W's "buddy system" made sure there was nothing but hacks in charge...I recall that Slick Willie had a very trying time getting his appointments thru, since he seemed to be trying to screen people for a certain minimum of qualifications, & not just offering govt. jobs to his golfing pals...

[Steph]

LOL @ the eloquent wording of Scotz's last sentence (well, his whole post but the last line was the clincher)

Maybe this is already common knowledge but I read last night that La's welfare money (not sure what America's exact terminology is) was to be distributed on Sept. 2, days after the storm.

I understand that it would have been impossible to give $$$ early to residents on assistance, however you'd think authorities would have been aware of this budget dilemma.

It really struck home to me because I live in such a po' 'hood. Government cheques are issued towards the end of the month here (I'm not sure if it's always the 27th but I'm pretty sure it is).

You can see how desperate people are before their cheques arrive and, if a calamity of Katrina's nature were to hit this area a few days before cheques are cut, people would be fucked.

It's only the middle of the month right now and people are already getting an early start on earning extra money (read participating in more criminal activity, prostitution, drug dealing, arguments, general loudness, etc. than occurs for the two weeks or so after cheques are issued). :rolleyes2

I'm sure the timing of the storm/gov't assistance was part of the reason people acted the way they did. Of course, I'm not defending the looting of TVs and alcohol but if I was a young parent on assistance and had no money until my next cheque, there is no doubt in my mind I would have smashed a shop window to get diapers and formula for my child.

And, to also comment on people who think events would have been the same if WJC was in power, I also respectfully disagree. He's been called the first black president by some & let's not forget, he grew up po', too. I think America was lucky to have such an intelligent man in power. Not only that, he remembered where he came from & endeavoured to improve the lot of all.

I think Clinton

a) wouldn't have been on vacation for five weeks to being with
&
b) would have moved White House operations as close to the action as he could for maximum impact

I really can't picture him being shamed into addressing/recognizing the seriousness of the situation.

I am an unabashed fan of him, can you tell? :better:

[jseal]

Gentlefolk,

Here’s an interesting development in the FEMA allocations process: both James Witt, Bill Clinton's FEMA director (and now an adviser to Louisiana's governor), and Joe Allbaugh, Mr Bush's first FEMA director, run consulting companies that help firms navigate the government red tape (James Lee Witt Associates & Allbaugh Co.). We’re talking serious cash here; Congress has already appropriated more than $60 billion to cover the costs of the disaster.

[rabbit]

I love ya rabbit...you know that! So, take this as banter back and forth and nothing more...k?



We're cool, hun. I am not really looking to stand up and defend the Administration...which I could type paragraphs doing...I just want to encourage people to dig deeper. A lot went wrong during Andrew and a lot of what went wrong was not FEMA's fault.

rabbit

[PantyFanatic]

Speaking of people shooting at 'copters, did anyone hear why that was going on? I know no reason would ever be good enough but I was wondering about the mentality. Were they afraid they'd be forcibly removed from their homes?
BigBear57 offered the most reasonable thought that is not a totally piss poor excuse for that 1% of every population that always ruthlessly seizes every opportunity to add to the chaos of every situation. I know I don’t want to attend any parties with Bibi for any of her “Pure unadulterated happiness”. :rolleyes2 I truly doubt they were sending Morse code signals to the rescuers or to the New Orleans police department when they finally entered the Superdome. What it did show me was not that NOPD was overwhelmed by the scope of the entire horrific event, but that they were not able to deal with the most basic first function of their responsibility in subduing a handful of thugs that were endangering them and everyone else including any other assistance that was struggling to help.

I am most serious about this tragedy being something that has laid bare EVERY aspect of the inability of our total bureaucratic structure being the true remains of Katrina.

[PantyFanatic]

….The subject of natural disasters, how the govt. responds, & how the incompetence of the appointed hacks affects that response reminds me of the story of Chicago some years back.… hit with a major blizzard that paralysed the whole city...the legendary & infamous Mayor Daly, understanding that his political machine couldn't possibly cope with this thing, exhorted residents to pitch in & help themselves out of the mess, which interestingly enough kept him from shoudering the blame for being unable to respond to an emergency...a lesson that was lost on a succeeding administration, after his death, that got hit with another snowstorm, & had no response of any kind to deal with it......You bring up the completely separate issue of self-responsibility that is going to be used and abused during the rock throwing and buck passing marathoner now started. That part of our individual duty, to reappraise our OWN preparedness for calamity, is as vital as demanding an authority with capability and accountability.

We have some MOST INTERESTING TIMES ahead of us. :rofl:

[Scarecrow]

No taxation without representation.

Give me liberty or give me death.

Here are a couple of slogans that people may want to use.

[PantyFanatic]

To say hurricanes and other major natural and manmade disasters don't effect elections is preposterous to me, especially considering the impact 911 had on current presidency. How a leader reacts during times of crisis is certainly an area under consideration when people vote.
The reality is that too often we forget far too many FACTS by the time we get to the voting booth unless the wolf blew OUR house down. Us little piggies are much too dependent on the tools of THEIR trade (campaign rhetoric). I hope that facts don’t get as muddied as NO by the time we get back to that booth.

[jseal]

...I hope that facts don’t get as muddied as NO by the time we get back to that booth.

PantyFanatic,

I am pleased to see that you and Lilith agree with my first post to this thread.

[Lilith]

Who knew the forecast for hell today included freezing rain and snow *shrugs* :D

[Steph]

Holy fuck, a flying pig just crash landed on my balcony!

[Lilith]

I hate it when that happens :p ^5

[sodaklostsoul]

/me sneaks quietly out of this thread.

[Lilith]

/me pinches her ass as she attempts to make a clean get away

[sodaklostsoul]

Dam.....busted!!

[jseal]

Who knew the forecast for hell today included freezing rain and snow *shrugs* :D

Lilith,

They say that politics makes for strange bedfellows! :x:

[Steph]

PantyFanatic,

I am pleased to see that you and Lilith agree with my first post to this thread.

jseal,

Please enlighten us on how PF agrees with you.

[scotzoidman]

You bring up the completely separate issue of self-responsibility that is going to be used and abused during the rock throwing and buck passing marathoner now started. That part of our individual duty, to reappraise our OWN preparedness for calamity, is as vital as demanding an authority with capability and accountability.

We have some MOST INTERESTING TIMES ahead of us. :rofl:
I think I may have overshot the connection I intended to make here...that HizzHoner could have been crucified by his own "buddy system", but he was shrewd enough to drop the hot potato back into the electorate's laps, & avoid serious burns...

[scotzoidman]

No taxation without representation.

Give me liberty or give me death.

Here are a couple of slogans that people may want to use.
Keep cool with Coolidge.

54-40 or fight.






scotz gets away with another thread hijacking...

[LixyChick]

Keep cool with Coolidge.

54-40 or fight.






scotz gets away with another thread hijacking...
Oh NO YOU DON'T Mr.!!!

Get over here so I can :69: ...er, I mean :whack: you!


:rofl: Who's gotten away with the hijacking now??? Ha!

[scotzoidman]

Oh NO YOU DON'T Mr.!!!

Get over here so I can :69: ...er, I mean :whack: you!


:rofl: Who's gotten away with the hijacking now??? Ha!
:bj: Tag, you're it!

[LixyChick]

:bj: Tag, you're it!
*SQUEAL*

:boobs: :lust:

Tag...you're it now!

:shake: