sexual subterfuge: the rant that wasn't supposed to be

[wyndhy]

angelicvampires posted a thread that got lil thinking. so lil posted a thread and her thread, coupled with a few recent events and a few sex news articles, got me thinking. or thinking harder, anyway.

i have this anxiety about what the generation that my children belong to (they’re still little) will come to understand about sex and sexuality. frankly, it frightens me.

some of you shared advice you got from your moms and stuff but i wonder if i could turn the tables now. if you have kids or maybe you don’t but you can at least imagine having kids, what’s your advice for them here? specifically, i’m wondering how you try to counterbalance the steady stream of false and idiotic ideas and information about sex that mainstream media streams into our homes everyday (uh…that was alotta streams. huh. weird.)


onward…

(WARNING! after re-reading my post this is the gereral area that i noticed, and you’re all gonna be surprised here, i went off on a little tangent. fell free to skip to the end and post your thoughts)
for example!

~poor spongebob gets blitzed because he might have an eensey weeensey thing goin on with the starfish and had the temerity to suggest we all be more tolerant.
~little buster's trip to the house with two mommies got noticed, and then spectacularly flamed, by some pompous idjit in a $4,000 suit and that was after...after... pbs had already decided not to air it.
~our teens think that getting/giving blowjob's and having anal sex does not make you sexually active. i mean hey…i'm still virgin, right? :whack:
~a recent story about kids and body image. a term which, by the way, they have now re-named globalized beauty… wtf? anyway, a girl, she was 11 i think, ate little balls of paper…PAPER!…all day long cause she figured it had no calories but it still made her belly feel full. oh—and she drank water ands ate exlax so she could, "ya know, poop...to stay healthy". smart girl. so why did she do that?
~a woman’s breast popping out on tv can cause a totally overdone media frenzy perpetuated by a hypocritical anchor woman pulling a fatal attraction right there on my plasmascreen in her little swivel chair. :slurp: (*cough* foxnews *cough* :p)
~the other football faux pas—the commercial with the woman from housewives. how irresponsible of them to show a naked body???…puh-leeze! even when get it right they get it all wrong. it wasn’t the naked body that was offensive, it was the message that if a woman can’t manipulate a guy into having sex she should at the very least pout and act petulant.
~laws that are still on the books, and yes some of them are still put into practice when it suits a “unique” situation. these laws make certain sexual acts, even when they are performed between two consensual adults in secluded private, illegal, immoral and grounds for arrest. some of them so vaguely worded they could be interpreted to mean masturbating in your shower stall.
~schools that are cornered into to accepting misleading and incomplete sex-ed books because the state that holds the publishing rights has the biggest lobby in congress. (not 100% positive on this one but it popped into my head…heard it somewhere….the state is texas maybe? details…details…)

and except for the vaguely worded laws i mentioned, these are all things that have come to my attention in the last 2 weeks alone!

oh! and on a personal levelthe totally rude, crude, detestable, distasteful, hateful, misinformed and generally bird-brained things i have seen with my own two eyes--which i believe, are a product of all the above and then some, crammed into a growing brain at speeds worthy of an 80’s rock video. it’s disgraceful. it makes me sad.

i could never exile myself from all forms of mainstream media, nor would i want to. so that option is moot. but they all contain some little thing that adds another skewed image to a stockpile of rejects building up in their young minds. and i can’t rationally ensure that my kids won’t ever pick up on these falsehoods even if i could manage to exterminate them from my home.

we see a lot of good stuff too. a lot. but everythign they see gets stored somewhere.

and what gets me is that it’s not like i’m bringign up some brilliant never-thought-of-before idea. marlene deitreck or however you spell her name said that in america, sex in an obsession, everywhere else, it’s a fact. and she’s been dead for like 50 years. this is not new.we talk about it all the time. for cryin’ out loud, the media even talks about how the media itself instigates and fuels these ridiculous notions. it's a twisted society we live in i think sometimes. and america can name herself the gooey cream of celery soup that bonds this society of sexual subterfuge casserole together…errrr…spoooooon!!!!

ok…hold it…the tick reference clued me in….this has turned into a rant…sorry. i’m leaving my thoughts, but i’ll go back and warn everyone where it goes wonky. my only excuse? bigbad’s out of town so I’m staying up wayyyyy too late :D but my heart is pure and i want your input. anything you wanna say. anything at all. i need to help steer my own kids in the right direction. we have a lot of ways we deal with this already but i wanna soak up all your thoughts, too.

[osuche]

I don't have kids. And all my friends' kids are under the age of 5, so I have no valid working hypothesis. However, my best response is that:

1. You're never going to be able to shield your kids from these messages
2. Most of the kids in your kids' schools will have stupid and close-minded ideas about sex, because most of their parents will too. :yikes:
3. The best thing you can do is to have an open communicative relationship with your kids.....ask good questions....give them your time.....let them feel you are a real confidante
4. It's better to talk to your kids and *know* what they're up to (and steer them into doing it safely) than to stick your head in the sand.
5. Talk about sex openly. Maybe if it's less taboo, there will be less obsession on their parts. I know it worked with me and alcohol. :D
6. Don't rely on your kids' school to give them good sex ed
7. Know your kids friends
8. Sometimes "cool mom" isn't the best. Kids need boundaries. However, ALWAYS explain "WHY" you require/think/believe some way....with reason, I think kids can adjust. And even respect their parents. However, arbitrary-ness is one of the easiest causes of kid disillusionment with their parents.

/me inserts disclaimer about not having kids again

OK...Now I'm going to leave it to the experts to weigh in. :D

:x: Go to bed, wyndhy..you'll feel better in the morning. :D

[wyndhy]

yeah...k :x: i'm off. nite.

[Action_Jay]

sex and big media. ohhhh great, look what they've done now.

My school taught sex-ed by saying if you have sex, you're going to hell. This seems to be the general vein they're continuing with in the states, too. It's as if they actually want kids to be disillusioned and obsessed and misled about what sex is, and what it means. Once I accepted sexuality into my own life, I was able to breath a sigh of relief. Like wow, that wasn't nearly as fucked up as they made it out to be.

I don't have a whole lot else to add. You covered it pretty well and I agree wholeheartedly. On an amusing note 'spoon' used to be a code word between my long distance honey and myself that there was someone watching over our shoulder and we had to discreetly can the cybersex... hehe....

[Loulabelle]

I think this is pretty much an American thread and a lot of what is said here does not really apply to culture here in the UK. I'm pretty sure we'd have responded differently the Janet Jackson thing, for example as our reaction over here was: 'It's just a breast, you couldn't even see her nipple, and you can see a couple of those anytime you open the nation's best selling newspaper'.

Having said that it still bugs me that there are people in the world who'll hurredly switch channels when James Bond is undoing his bond girl's dress as their children are watching, but when he's blowing up buildings or firing a gun, no-one bats an eyelid.

Shouldn't we be telling our children that violence is unnacceptable in any circumstances - that it's wrong and that under no circumstances should it be considered 'entertaining'? And that sex is something which does exist in the world and can be a wonderful and enlightingexperience when shared between two consenting adults who love each other deeply?

[boilergirl1]

I think this is pretty much an American thread and a lot of what is said here does not really apply to culture here in the UK. I'm pretty sure we'd have responded differently the Janet Jackson thing, for example as our reaction over here was: 'It's just a breast, you couldn't even see her nipple, and you can see a couple of those anytime you open the nation's best selling newspaper'.

Having said that it still bugs me that there are people in the world who'll hurredly switch channels when James Bond is undoing his bond girl's dress as their children are watching, but when he's blowing up buildings or firing a gun, no-one bats an eyelid.

Shouldn't we be telling our children that violence is unnacceptable in any circumstances - that it's wrong and that under no circumstances should it be considered 'entertaining'? And that sex is something which does exist in the world and can be a wonderful and enlightingexperience when shared between two consenting adults who love each other deeply?
amen loulabelle

[Mark Vieth]

Ok all, as I have a son myself I can understand some of what is being said here. However Australia tends to be more liberal than most. By that I mean, kids as young as 11 are sexually active. It scares me to think what will my son be exposed to when he get's to that age. Now of course it comes back to the parents.

There are some parents here, who think that "well they're going to do it anyway so we may as well let them do it under our roof so we can keep an eye on it."

I think that is the wrong mentality. Call me old fashioned here, but I think that anyone should start to do things during their teenage years. Preferably in the late teens.

Then there are some who just simply don't care that much for sex and don't start until they are in their 20's. Like me for example, I was more focused on my school work that it never entered my mind. Then when I was 21 and was with my g/f I did it then.

[BigBear57]

I'll have to say Osuche is pretty well spot on with her comments. I agree about open lines of communication with your kids. I know with my own two I try to address issues as they come along. My son had occasion not too long ago to tag things as being gay. "Those pants look gay" "He acts so gay" anyhow. I finally asked him why the need for making those observations? He really didn't have an answer. I said "Son, think about this. You don't judge people by the things they do in private. Try thinking more about how they treat you. Gay isn't bad, it's different. Different isn't always bad. Don't just pick your friends because they think like you do and don't always accept the things everybody thinks. You can learn a lot from thinking for yourself."
When my daughter was 15 we were riding along a city street and a man was making an attempt to move a rather large Air Conditioning unit alone. His method of moving this monstrosity was to "hunch" it along. Seeing this unusual sight, I reached over to cover my daughter's eyes and said "Oh my God, No!" Don't look Baby... why would he do that in public... that nasty man!" Of course she struggled even harder to see what I was shielding her from and when she finally saw she burst into a nervous giggle. As odd as that little thing sounds, it was really my first acknowledgement that she knew and understood sexual things. It sorta made talking about it easier between us. She's a pretty smart girl and I'm proud of her, both of them as a matter of fact. One friday night after a football game I met my daughter and her best friend at one of those all nighter greasy spoons for a bite to eat. Her best friend decided she was going to smoke me over by telling me a big tale to see how I'd react. As I stirred my coffee she very casually said "You know M and I are lovers don't you? We're lesbians and have been together for over a year." I calmly finished stirring my coffee and said "Thank God, now at least I don't have to worry about her getting pregnant!" Poor girl, I think I shocked her... she started mumbling and backpeddling. M reached over and whacked me. LOL Of course they were just kidding me but my attitude just surprised them. Now though, they're neither one afraid to make comments and actually listen when I'm not making corny jokes. It might not be the best way to go about things but I've been fairly satisfied with my results.

[Lilith]

I'm at the important early teens years with my oldest kiddo right now. I will come back and reply after I have coffee. I've vowed not to post anymore til I've had a cup :p

[LixyChick]

I don't have children...but I've watched from afar as my friends and family have "raised" theirs. Sometimes I think they can't see the forrest fore the trees.

The one thing that I've always thought, even when I was young and naive, is that the more taboo it seems, the more one wants to experience it. Out of sight-Out of mind doesn't hold true with sex, in my opinion. We are human, and therefore sexual, beings. Even from a very young age, this is demonstrated. And, it's human nature to be curious about something that others seem to be witholding information about. The more information you have about it, the less you'll yearn to blindly experience it till YOU are ready. Knowledge IS power. The lack of said knowledge sends you scurrying for or gathering information...and the sources could be suspect...and the answers could be misleading.

[WildIrish]

My oldest son looks at me and laughs when I refer to our two male rabbits "playing leapfrog". :rolleyes2:


Soooooooo.....I guess it's time for the talk.

In general, my tone will be informational and supportive. I'll attempt to convey that you need to respect yourself. You need to respect the one you love. You need to be responsible...for what happens before, during and after. And you need to be mature enough to understand what all of this means.

[osuche]

(((WI))) ~~ Can I sit on your lap while you give me ^^ talk? :D

[wyndhy]

lou is toatally right...this is primarily an american hang-up (*hangs her patriotic head in shame) but i don't want it to be an american thread. everyones thoughts are welcome.

i meant to say last nigh, osuche....i knew you were gonna put your reply in list form :p :D and i also think you oughta adopt some poor depraved rugrats cause you'd make a great mom.


this issue of violence vs sexuality. yes lou, you are dead on! it is a sad fact that families watching tv together will stare blandly at the screen, barely noticing the extent of carnage they are witnessing but during a sex scene they all squirm in their seats and lokk anywhere but at the tv or each other. (i have been guilty of this myself. shame on me)we have been so desensitized to violence that we hardly even notice it anymore but that's a nother thread. well, maybe not. they go hand in hand more or less...

it's not the physical act of sex i am dreading explaining. 11, i'll wholeheartedly agree mark, is very young for the actual physical act of sex for most cultures, but what about masturbation? personally, i don't think so. in the sexual awareness threads lil and osuche both brought up recently, i think most of you agreed it is more a state of mind than a physical change. and that is the part we want to make sure doesn't get poisoned. which is where the sex-ed comes in, jay. i would rather they just stayed out of the whole issue. i wish there was some way for you to check the no-sex-ed box for school but then i suppose some parent would check it for the wrong reasons and just, well, you get the idea. sex will not be a tabbo suject in this house, lix, so have no fear. :)

bigbear, those little stories! you are setting a great example for your kids! but your daughters friend? that's exactly what i'm talking about. she was trying to shock you with it. sexuality shouldn't be about shock-value, ya know? she's got the wrong attitude about it. you handled it perfectly, btw, brushing it off like that, like it isn't a big deal because well...it isn't.

and i think we should all wish WI good luck....when ya gonna do that, btw, tonight? :grin:

lil...have a few cuppa's ;)

[Action_Jay]

sexuality shouldn't be about shock-value

Bingo, nuff said. And here you were practically writing essays. *snicker*

[FallenAngel5]

Argh! My post just erased itself. I will try to reconstruct it. I have many thoughts on this topic, but I will try to keep them as readable as possible. :) Mini-rant first. The whole SpongeBob thing makes me so angry. As a very very progressive liberal, that and the whole Tinky-Winky thing from a couple years ago just makes me shake my head. In the article, one of the quotes from the Christian group was something along the lines of "a gay person in a video about tolerance? no way!" G-d forbid. I can't help but wonder what kind of country I live in. Anywho. :)

The whole sex vs. violence thing I have witnessed firsthand. My father will let my 16-year-old sister see anything with a huge amount of violence in it. But a little bit of sex... and it's a no-no. He told me once, when she was like 14, that he doesn't care if she sees an R-rated movie if it's rated that way for violence. But if it's sexuality-based, then there's no way she's seeing it. Tangent complete.

Now, to your original question, wyndhy, about raising children infested with this media's influence. I don't have children, but I would say that the best way to deal with the negativity is to instill in your children, from a very young age, strong feelings of tolerance and acceptance. Because we don't live in a bubble, they are certain to meet people throughout life that hold ignorant, close-minded attitudes about sex and all related issues. However, children tend to believe what their parents teach them, which, consequently, is why many people still hold bigoted attitudes. But that's another topic. Back on track. I would say, show, by example, that sex isn't dirty. I'm not saying watch porn in front of them, but bring the topics up at age-appropriate levels. There are many excellent books about this topic, I can recommend some if you wish. But if you teach your child the correct things, they can be the ones to correct all the horrible things that they will hear from their classmates at school. Which you can be sure that they will hear. I feel like I'm rambling. But your child will grow up believing what you say. To teach them a healthy expression of their sexuality will help them immensely in the long run.

[wyndhy]

Bingo, nuff said. And here you were practically writing essays. *snicker*

it's a foible :p :D

but i did realize that when i post to this thread i get myself all in a snit. i just wrote (and then deleted) a few paragraphs before i realized iwas doing it again :rolleyes2 so i'm not gonna say anymore. i'll just sit back and listen from now on if anyone else has anyhting to say...

/me says really fast....right on sister angel! ^5 :D

[Mark Vieth]

When I said that it comes back to the parents that is what I meant. If the parents take the time and have the correct attitude about things and are able to explain their point without squirming themselves then half the battle is won.

Now having this "well they can have sex under our roof" attitude is wrong. Our school system here in Australia teaches sex ed in grades 5-6. Now most kids just laugh at half the things that are said because they haven't been briefed by the parents. Now some parents have the mentality that the child should find out for themselves in their own time. So they won't say anything to them and let the school system do it's work.

Now as far as violence goes. Well again it comes down to the parents. If there is something on TV that is rated MA15+ then of course you are not going to allow the kids to watch it. That is of coure if they are under 15. Even still some parents would just change the channel. It's also common sense as well if an R-rated film is on then you choose not to watch it, by changing the channel or turn off the TV.

[WildIrish]

Let's not get off track by introducing violence. Good Lord...I've already failed that topic, thanks to peer pressure over LOTR! Sorry Sharni. No offense. Who in their right mind thinks that 13 is the right age for one to watch 927,638 Orcs get killed?

Back to sex. I think the way to go is to let him watch romance movies with his mother. :D

[BIBI]

Well there isn't much that I can offer but this.

Kids have and always will have sex before they are ready and violence has been around since the dawn of time.

I have always believed and practiced that the best thing I could do was to teach my kids the tools that they would need in order to live a decent life. Once these tools were taught it was up to them to apply them as they saw fit. Thankfully they both turned out great but it is because of the choices they made for themselves with guidence from their Father and myself. We were great communicators with our kids....

I was a very involved parent as was my ex husband. We didn't allow them to see things that were age inappropriate and we didn't condone violence in any form.
We started talking about sex with them at an early age and never flinched from any question that arose. I did a wonderful example to my daughter about how big a condom would stretch and my husband explained to her the nature of a teenaged boy...due to the fact he had been one lol. I explained to my son what teen girls wanted and how he had to be a decent male as he father was....We always tried to get them to put themselves into someone else's shoes, so to speak. I cannot recall and this is the truth. "I am too busy now" We were never too busy to talk to our kids. I am not trying to put forth that we were perfect by any means, but we never gave up and gave in to what was against our belief system, as I seen some parents do.

We as parents must set the limits and adhere to these limits ourselves when our children are around us....

If no one ever went to a violent movie or bought a violent video game, there would be none made for there would be no profit from it. Certain clothing for kids would not be made if people didn't give into their kids and buy them. There is no concrete answer to these problems for everywhere a kid goes it is in their face and of course then there is the peer pressure from their friends too.

Some blame the problems on single parent families and families where both parents work. I came from such a home and I turned out just fine for I had a healthy respect for my mother. I knew she was the boss and that I had to answer to her. She taught me never to just say no to a child without explaining why. It avoided the old "your just being mean to me tirade" and I also never had the excuse that I "didn't know"...unless I really didn't.

There is also not enough follow through in some of the schools today either. I can only base this on my experience though. I take my grandson to school every morning and take note of the kids on the playground.
Their are girls showing half their body off yet the school has a policy that prohibits girl's from showing bellies and shoulders, yet it is not enforced ergo it continues and grows worse each year. There is also a no contact rule yet I see the staff watching the boys throwing eachother around until someone gets hurt. The aren't allowed to take skateboards but they are present and very much in use in the nicer weather.....

See each thing I mention goes back to the fact that the parent must be continually involved in all areas that their children venture in this life.

Oh well I have rambled enough and not really added anything to this thread.....

Next case!!!

[Aqua]

OMG BIBI... Don't say those two words!! :p

A lot of great things have been spoken here already so I am not sure I can add anything new. I wholeheartedly believe that in the US we have, for the most part, an overzealous campaign to stifle knowledge of sexuality, yet you will fiind copious amounts of sexuality in advertising. *head spins*

So... as a parent I think the most important thing is open communication with children. Children are generally smarter and more aware than they are given credit and I believe that if you make it clear to them it's ok to even say the word 'sex'... well, I think they are more likely to think about it, and discuss it, rather than it being something that their parents won't talk about so they better find out for themselves.

[BIBI]

OMG BIBI... Don't say those two words!! :p
.

awwww...what's the matter? Does it conjure up a bad time in your life? lol :)

ok...how about???

"Nice ass" :devilish:

[Aqua]

awwww...what's the matter? Does it conjure up a bad time in your life? lol :)

ok...how about???

"Nice ass" :devilish:
No, it conjures up a bad time for the whole site! lol

'Nice ass', however, always conjures up good things. (Like hard-ons) :p

[Oldfart]

I'll probably get a blast from some, but . . . .

Children need to learn the ground rules of their society. These are the things which

are expected of them by the moderate mainstream of their community.

They need to know where the boundaries are so they can run back within these

boundaries if crossing the line turns bad.

They need to know the limits the far right want to impose, so they can understand

the threat posed by these people.

They need to know the limits the anarchic left want followed, so the child can understand

the futility of utopian dreams.

Understanding is the key.

[wyndhy]

not from me, of...

[osuche]

No, it conjures up a bad time for the whole site! lol



Oh! I remember HER!!!!!

/me breathes a sigh of relief that we saw that one go...and quickly. :p