Open Marriages

[sixsense]

Recently at another forum we got into a discussion about open marriages and how possible it might reaffirm a marriage. Reaffirm because our basic humn instinct for both sexes for copulation and curiosity could be fullfilled leaving less questions of what if. Supposedly allowing a fuller meaningful mental/emotional portion of the marriage.

The only real argument given was that many people could not handle the jealousy, which was argued back that shows a possiveness on the jealous persons part. As if the SO is a object they own. Which goes back to a patriarchy ideal that at least many of us in that board were trying not to fall for.

Soo.. Im wondering if any of the couples here have a open marriage, and how has it worked out? Helped? Hindered? Ever worries about STDs from one another? Have you actually been afraid your SO (or yourself) falling mentally for the outside partner(s)?

At the other end, do you think some couples are only meant for one another. Since we humans have choice and dont have a real instinct driving us here. We can choose to be like wolves that mate for life.

(I hope this was the right area since it is dealing with sex in this section)

[Vigil]

Monogamy is not a repressive institution based upon patriarchal oppression (ask any barrister). If we had patriarchal oppression, we would have harems.

Open marriage is an oxymoron - like military intelligence or TV personality.

If you need to fuck whoever takes your fancy or to discover who you are - you are too immature to get married or marraige is not for you, which is fair enough but not for your partner maybe, otherwise you are being selfish which is more likely the reality.

I just object to wrapping this up in some excuse because you have exhausted the sexual possibilities of one partner even though they remain your best bet in the wider unit field.

Just be honest about it. I need to explore more, but keep an eye to the consequences. Put a little more effort in, you may be surprised.

GGGRRRRR

Scary Vigil.

[Lilith]

My wanting to have an open relationship has nothing to do with needing to discover myself, nor have I exhausted the sexual possibilities with Mr. Lil (well maybe for today but tomorrow is another day). Just because something is not your cup of tea, I would still ask you be respectful to those of us who see the coin from a different side.

I know who I am and yearn to share aspects of myself with others who I have come to care for deeply in my life. I find my need for an open marriage to be different from many. I do not seek an open marriage for a more free love lifestyle but because I have already established relationships that have in no way detracted from my marriage and I yearn to express myself sexually in those relationships. Mr. Lil, being the extraordinary man that he is, is secure enough to realize that there is no other relationship to rival what he and I have. We are in the process of sincerely weighing out what influence multiple partners would have on our lives. He has expressed that he feels glad that I am not seeking a lifestyle where I/he would sleep with people randomly but that instead it would simply be an option if either of us were ever in a situation where it was what we felt was right.

For me marriage does not mean we have agreed to forego any other close intimate relationships, only that we have chosen to make ours the primary one in both of our lives.

[Wicked Wanda]

**Wanda Kitty unsheaths her very sharp claws**
Vigil, you are so wrong in so many ways!
Starting with the "Patriarchal oppression" you deny exists in the West.
By the way, go back and re-read what sixsense wrote. The words "patriarchal oppression" DO NOT APPEAR!!!! ***ANYWHERE***in the post!
Sixsense did mention "patriarchal ideal" which is not the same thing, sweetie pie.
I am bothered by your translation of "ideal" into "oppression". A nastier woman than myself might suggest that your slip is showing. (Freud was a silly man anyway. I mean, all women have "penis envy"??... HAH! But never mind)
I wonder if you asked your SO (wife or girlfriend) if she thinks this is a patriarchal society?
You should. I do not know your SO, but she likely might tell you that the West, as big an improvement as it is over the rest of the world, is not an equal opportunity place for women, even in the 21st century.
The "patriarchal ideal" sixsense mentioned traditionally refers to the confidence a man has in believing HE is the sire of any offspring, and the other "rights" a man has over a woman in the marriage. The "fatherhood" issue is a big one. In the animal kingdom dominant males will kill and eat the male offspring of other males.
This is important to human males too. Look at the laws on heirs and property, for example, and the "right" a man seems to have in many places in the USA to KILL his wife if he finds her with another man!
Men are still being given the "benefit of the doubt" on this in too many places. Women are not granted this doubt in similar circumstances...
I think that murder over sexual fidelity is stupid, cruel and pointless, but I feel like a voice in the wilderness. And we will not speak of the practices OUTSIDE the West, which are totally barbaric, including female circumcision, and "honor" murders!!
The patriarchal issues extend into joint ownership of property, management of money, and even joint credit ratings. ("Have your husband come down to co-sign if you want to borrow money, Mrs. Smith)"
Women keeping their own surnames is stil a bit of a scandal in some circles, and I prefer Ms. to Mrs., as I am not ANYBODY'S property, even when I was married. (yes I was, and I am coming to that too, later on)
Yes, things have improved a lot recently, but there are still problems. Louisiana, my home state, bases its' laws on the Napoleanic Code for God's sake!
NEXT:
Laws AGAINST the right to birth control for women.
I am not talking about abortion. Just birth control. You know, condoms, diaphrams, the Pill. Margaret Sanger, (my personal idol, after my Parents) went to prison for teaching women how NOT to get pregnant in 1917 at a time when the death rate for women in childbirth was horrendous.
Canda didn't legalize contraception 1969. The USA made legal the sale of birth control devices to single people IN FUCKING 1972!!!!!!
Next:
I am a young woman. When my Grandmama was born, (1940) in France, she could not vote, run for office, or join a political party. France did not "grant" the right to vote to women until 1944. The USA did it earlier, in 1920.
The USA still has not found its' way to elect a woman President, or even a Vice President.
The first woman elected to a Govenorship on her own merit, and not as a substitute for her spouse was Ella Grasso, in 1974.
Women Senators are fairly new too, by the way. Since 1920, when we got the vote, 33 have served, and 23 of those have been elected since 1972.

So much for the "patriarchal ideal" as a "myth." Maybe "oppression" is closer to reality!

Out of room. Next post I get really catty.

MS. Wicked Wanda

[Cassiopeia]

Wicked Wanda: Here is an interesting article to read about patriarchal ideals. patriarchal ideal (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/771837/posts) It seems like it does refer to monogamous marriages. I think that perhaps Vigil slipped in the word "oppression" because the patriarchal ideal is often associated with female oppression.

sixsense: I personally think that it seems too idealistic for *most* couples. However, I commend those that have made their open marriage successful...I don't think I could do it.

[Wicked Wanda]

Maturity? Selfishness?
HAH!
How dare you to presume to know my level of maturity, or if I am selfish?
If selfish means I want to be in charge of my self, my life, and my body, then yes, because...
I fuck whomever I want WHEN I want. I control my body, and my appetites.
I am not an animal, driven mindlessly to copulate, and to reproduce.
As a bisexual, primarily lesbian woman, I am not too likely to have a child.
I just happen to enjoy sex tremendously. I like having a variety of partners and sexual experiences. I fuck a lot!!!!
I do not desire to have to gain PERMISSION to do so.
(Lil, I wrote the first post before you posted your reply, I just am a slow typist.)
Lil is in a loving, NEGOTIATED arrangement.
So am I.
My arrangement is I am careful about disease, pregnancy, my own personal safety, and the safety of my home and loved ones.
And I fuck whomever I please.
I use "fuck" to cover any sexual encounter, as I sleep with other women more than I sleep with men. "Fuck" just seems to cover it all so well.
I was married, and in a "monogamous" relationship.
At least I though so.
Hubby, the dear rat bastard I have spoken of before, gave me an unplanned pregnancy, chlamydia, and gonnorhea.
If I had not suffered a "spontaneous AB" (a miscarriage to those of you not in medicine) I might have tried to stay married, to provide for my child.
THAT IS THE BEST REASON FOR MARRIAGE!!!!
The government also tries to makes it almost impossible to share your life with someone else without marriage.
Insurance, Social Security, visiting in the hospital, signing papers when the other person is sick, all these things are so frustrating without marriage, that stupid little piece of paper.
YES!!!
I AM PRO SAME -SEX MARRIAGE!!! -for this reason, and to protect any children involved...
But to enforce monagamy????
Please don't forget it was still illegal in several states to have sex with anyone other than your spouse until VERY recently. This was enforced very selectively.
Open marriage is about respect.
Respect for each other, for yourselves, and for any others involved.
That seems much more mature than enforced, unwanted monogamy.

Bitch Dyke Kitty Wanda is too tired to claw and rant anymore.

WW

[Wicked Wanda]

HUGS Hi Cassie.
I read that link, and it is scary, but probably about right for 1933.
It supports the idea of the patriarchal society as an oppressive one for women.
But that seems to follow the definition, doesn't it?

I didn't answer any of sweet sixsense' questions though, did I?
Ok.
Jealousy.
I ALWAYS, ALWAYS come home. My loves know this, and it is a big part of the ease with which we have adopted this lifestyle. I never surprise my loves, I never keep dates from them, they always know where I am, and who I am with. (for safety- mine and theirs) I follow the AGREED ON RULES, about internet dating (never again) disease prevention, pregnancy avoidance, cell phone availabilty, emergency money, and to follow my instincts about people I meet face to face, which are very, very good.
I never leave my drink untended, and always watch the bartender make mine.
(Yes, it DOES sound like "Teen Girls' guide to dating" but it is also pretty much common sense stuff)
And I NEVER EVER, even when I am furious at my loves, make stupid comparison comments like "well she never treats me like that" refering to another sexual partner, or compare sexual techniques, or that "for a man he was pretty awsome" or "that was the best sex I ever had" kind of stuff.
Part of my obligation to my loves is to make her and him feel special, wanted, sexual, desirable, talented, even superior to those around them, all tempered with common sense. I am very lucky in that they are all these things anyway. Makes my obligation very light. Honest!!!
My belief in them and my love, respect, and admiration for them is what makes these things so easy to do.
And most importantly their respect, faith and love for me makes it possible for us to do this.
(Part 2, yes, they have open parts to their sexual lives as well, but very little, and the same rules apply.)

I am sure I have really confused everyone by now, but that's life.
Get over it.

Sexually polymorphicaly and polyamorously perverse,

WW

[cowgirltease]

Wicked Wanda..... You go girl!!!!!!!!! I love your style! :D
I think you just became my mentor. :)

[Vullkan]

open or not open...marriage doesn't mean the same thing to eveyone. Conservatives would like it clearly defined as X, Y, and Z.

But what ever is the meaning of marriage I think I am on safe grounds that for the majority, it means a special bond that is unique to two people...m/m, m/f, or f/f. And it is those two people who define what that bond is for them. So it would be ok to have an open marriage for some and while for others it is not.

Neither member of the relationship in my view should force or perswade the other either way--it should be something that both should agree on

[Vigil]

OK.

My understanding of the difference between repression and oppression is that the former tries to stop something happening through the pressure of morality and the latter through a legal structure. Historically both have happened. Actually in the UK now there is a movement against the financial oppression that divorced fathers face. I am no more going to go on a guilt trip about historical oppression and repression of women than I am for the slave trade. I learn about these things in History with a view to their hopefully never happening again and certainly not with my support.

My personal opinion on marriage is that many people suffer from getting married too soon. They neither understand themselves nor the personal responsibility that goes with the committment. If you are lucky you can get to know yourself within the marriage.

Please do not think that my personal opinion and experience is a direct criticism of your lifestyle. If your own experience of marriage was an unmitigated disaster because you chose the wrong person at the wrong time and at a time when you hadn't realised that it just wasn't for you, fair enough, but your experience is still one experience as mine is.

I was probably more immature than my wife when we married, but we had both pretty much explored our sexuality enough to know that we were compatible. I have since learned the responsibility of fatherhood and the type of family environment that I see my kids wanting.

If you are fortunate enough to have satisfied these obligations within your marriage and the kids are secure, then I totally respect a decision that you can begin to put yourself first again. What I don't like is people (men and women) who put themselves first before they have fulfilled the obligations that they made when committing to a marriage, unless of course both parties went into the committment with the shared objective of having an open relationship.

For me marriage as contracted by the state is a specific relationship. People are free to make any number of lifestyle choices about how they live their lives and with whom, but perhaps we should find some different terms to describe these relationships then we wouldn't spit at each other so much.

[scotzoidman]

Well...isn't it interesting how almost all discussions here evolve into history lessons lately... ;)

Actually, the only reason I wandered into this thread, & stuck around long enough to catch the sound & fury, was to say that my only experience with an "open" marriage was a couple I knew many years ago that didn't work out in the long term...but I think it failed because it wasn't truly open, it was just his excuse to try to screw any woman he desired, including a clumsy attempt at my own wife...& it wasn't my objection that stopped him, his "little woman" dragged him away to chew his ass out as he was, I think, about to ask me if I was "cool" with it. Just for the record, I would have told him it was up to her (my wife)...I trust her to do what she knows is right...hey, maybe I'm the one with a truly open marriage? Nahhhh, she'd cut my balls off if she caught me ;)

[Loulabelle]

Sorry Vigil,

I have to disagree with you too hun.

While I have never been involved in an open relationship, it is something I would not (and have not) rule out in the future.

I can see a lot of benefits to the relationship in this kind of relationship, however my immaturity and insecurities about myself as a person are what stops me.

I believe I have an excellent relationship with Fussy and at this point in time do not feel the need or desire for sex with others but at the same time there are sexual experiences which I know I'd like to try before I die (threesomes etc). What has preventing me from taking that step so far is that I am not emotionally or mentally prepared to live with all the possible consequences. I am too afraid that my own insecurities and petty jealousies may drive a wedge between Fussy and I and am not prepared to let that happen.

However, when Fussy and I have reached a level of maturity and our relationship itself has reached a level of maturity which we feel would allow us to deal with the possible complications of an open relationship, then that is when we may decide to embark on one.

On a related note, I've never understood why the 'sex isn't the be all and end all' crowd, also tend to argue that open relationships are wrong. If sex isn't that important to a marriage, why on earth should it matter who we do it with? And why should we risk our relationships by lying to our partners in order to get sex outside of marriage as so many people do? Personally I think that sex is implicitly important to a marriage and each couple needs to ensure that their needs and desires are met in a permissive and encouraging manner.....if this means going outside of the marriage with the other's full consent and approval then so be it....if not, then fine, no one's suggesting that it becomes compulsory!

[Sharni]

Insurance, Social Security, visiting in the hospital, signing papers when the other person is sick, all these things are so frustrating without marriage, that stupid little piece of paper.
De facto is a accepted thing in Oz....Bilbo and I arent married...but in the eyes of the law we are

[Irish]

This is,very,simple,for my wife & I.We live in,what some may call,a fantasy
world.We have BOTH always believed that,somewhere in the world,is the only
mate for you.That you are DESTINED to be together.It may be a FANTASY
world,but we have had,a completely,unboring marriage for 39yrs.We don't
care what other people believe,but it has worked for us.It's called "Live &
let live"! Irish
P.S.Our marriage vows said-For better or worse-& that's what we have had!

[sweetlady]

I would not be able to do it.

That IS my husband. I AM his wife. That's our agreement. Absolutely we "belong" to each other. Not just me to him, not just him to me. Us, to each other. That is MY love. My lover. My friend. As I am his love, lover, friend.

When I have sex with him, it is a profound expression of my feelings for him. Special feelings. A special commitment. A special choice to do whatever work it takes to remain in that special relationship with just him. A statement that I recieve that physical pleasure from him, and him alone. I see sex as a symbolic statement within a partnership. It goes beyond physical grunting.

I am also of the opinion that if our relationship is not special, and we each feel the need to express that level of commitment to other people, then we should not be married. Expressing commitment to many people sort of destroys the ideas of integrity, faithfulness, commitment, and the many other feelings and actions I associate with a powerful, central, integral relationship such as a marriage.

I don't mind other people doing as they wish. However, what I do dislike and what angers me is people who have in the past started a "relationship" with me while they were married. In each relationship I am in, the question is always there, "Is this The One?" Someone already being married and having no intention or desire ever to have anything more with me than sex degrades the act of sex, it diminishes the statement of sex, relegating it to two people grunting and getting physical satisfaction then walking away from each other. The profound spirititual and emotional connection is meaningless to them.

When I have sex with someone, my feelings towards them absolutely change. This is why I don't run around casually spreading my legs. Because as an individual, I cannot handle it. It is too meaningful to me, matters too much to me.

[Vigil]

I have been asking around my UK and European liberal open-minded friends today about this question. Whilst we all know people who have tried an open marriage, we don't know any that have lasted as a result.

I don't mean open relationships, these do not require the taking of vows to bind the committment. I have no problem if you want to renegotiate your vows/committment but in a way this would seem to me like the original marriage is over and a new one has started. Same relationship maybe, but a different marriage.

On another issue, I support gay marriage, precisely because children aren't the only or best reason for marriage, but because people are willing to make vows on their committment to each other.

People happily took the "obey" out of the vows - just ask the vicar or state official to take out the bit about honouring with your body and being faithful.

On a lighter note, I actually got married in a foreign language and didn't understand a word - so personnally I have no idea what I committed to.

[Wicked Wanda]

As a very petite woman residing in the deep South (in the USA) I am used to some condescension. But it still surprises me when it happens in Pixie's.
Leigh calls these "drive by condesensions"- off hand comments that mean a lot when you look deep--

"My understanding of the difference between repression and oppression is that the former tries to stop something happening through the pressure of morality and the latter through a legal structure" -Vigil

Webster:
"Repression": (you have to go to the root, "Repress" for this one )1 a : to check by or as if by pressure : CURB b : to put down by force

"Oppression" Function:noun
1 a : unjust or cruel exercise of authority or power b : something that oppresses especially in being an unjust or excessive exercise of power


"then I totally respect a decision that you can begin to put yourself first again. What I don't like is people (men and women) who put themselves first before they have fulfilled the obligations that they made when committing to a marriage, unless of course both parties went into the committment with the shared objective of having an open relationship."-Vigil

"so personnally (sic) I have no idea what I committed to."- Vigil

"I see sex as a symbolic statement within a partnership. It goes beyond physical grunting."...."This is why I don't run around casually spreading my legs."--sweetlady

"Well...isn't it interesting how almost all discussions here evolve into history lessons lately... "-scotzoidman
(love, history is how we got here, and probably where we are going)

"I am no more going to go on a guilt trip about historical oppression and repression of women than I am for the slave trade. I learn about these things in History with a view to their hopefully never happening again and certainly not with my support." --Vigil

This "History" is happening around you RIGHT NOW my sweets, and you really need to look around more. The West IGNORED the Taliban until they attacked us. The horrible lives of Afghani women wasn't in the USA's "best interest" to do anything about.
Slavery is alive and well in the Middle East, especially the Sudan.
Try reading up on Indian "dowry murders" and other kinds of "honor killings" I understand this is becoming a problem in the UK too.
Look up what happened here in the USA to Teena Brandon, a lesbian who posed as a man. When her male "friends" found out, they raped and murdered her.

From the web site "infoforhealth.org"
"Around the world at least one woman in every three has been beaten, coerced into sex, or otherwise abused in her lifetime. Most often the abuser is a member of her own family. Increasingly, gender-based violence is recognized as a major public health concern and a violation of human rights."

Yeah, right, it's history.
Ok, you won't support it, but will you fight it?
I do EVERY DAMN DAY!!!!!!!!!!!

"I think that sex is implicitly important to a marriage and each couple needs to ensure that their needs and desires are met in a permissive and encouraging manner.....if this means going outside of the marriage with the other's full consent and approval then so be it....if not, then fine, no one's suggesting that it becomes compulsory" Loulabelle (((**HUGS**))) thank you hon!!!!
And of course Lil, and CowGirlTease, Vullkan, (why should the majority define marriage? but I ALMOST agree with you) Cassi, who found her own scholarship to add, as did Sharni, and Irish... who can disagree with me without insulting me. (If I ever come see you I am going to kiss you no matter what your wonderful wife says, so there!!!!)

BUT!! right now I am angry beyond anymore words!
It seems to say here that I am a selfish, immature slut, putting my own lusts and desires ahead of all else... a girl who married too early, and that is why I am so whatever you think I am!!!
At least that is what some people are suggesting.

'Bye for a while, at least, maybe, I don't know.

W

[Cassiopeia]

BUT!! right now I am angry beyond anymore words!
It seems to say here that I am a selfish, immature slut, putting my own lusts and desires ahead of all else... a girl who married too early, and that is why I am so whatever you think I am!!!
At least that is what some people are suggesting.

'Bye for a while, at least, maybe, I don't know.

W

WW, you are definitely NOT a selfish, immature slut. You're just passionate...and I think you're awesome for not being afraid to let your opinions known.
I think its just hard for those who have not been in such a relationship to understand completely?
I hope you stay around here...we need another sexy New Orleans woman around here. ;)

*big hug*

Cassiopeia

[Lilith]

WW~ ((hugs)) don't allow yourself to be personally offended by people who have not taken the time to get to know you personally. They speak in generalities and not in specifics. You and I both know that when people take time to share ideas and get to know one another's viewpoints, personal animosity is much less likely and often we are able to expand eachother's ways of thinking.

[Prophet Reality]

WW.. I agree 100% with Lilith. People speak in general terms, for those of us that know and love you... we know how safe and careful you are and far from being called a slut. And if anyone blantantly does so... they will deal with me. Now then as to the question at hand, I think it all depends on the couple. As Loulabelle stated, she knows that she is not ready for that change in her relationship at this time with Fussy. And that is the best way to know when it is the right time. I myself yearn for a woman that is ready for an open relationship for several reasons, and not all of them are in regards to needing sex from a different person. So my advice is to talk it out and explore slowly, then work yourself up to it.

[Vigil]

May I establish that this thread is about "open Marriage". Marriage as I understand it sanctioned by the state (what interest the state should have in your personal relationships would be another good thread). But official marriage supposedly bound by vows that we make to each other amongst other things.

If you are not married then the context of this thread has nothing to do with your chosen lifestyle and please do not take my comments to be aimed at you.

Many of the other issues raised here would make very interesting threads and I hope that they are started.

[Irish]

WW---I COMMEND you for standing up for what YOU believe!As you know,you
only have to satisfy,what YOU believe,not someone else.As I have said before,you only have to make the person happy,that looks back from the mirror!As said before-If you don't stand for something,you'll fall for anything!
Irish :)

[Lilith]

If you are not married then the context of this thread has nothing to do with your chosen lifestyle and please do not take my comments to be aimed at you.




In a perfect world that would be nice but every person who reads this thread will be affected by what they read regardless of their marital status. No one else should attempt to define my morality. If I am not harming you then what I do in my bedroom or a bedroom in Seattle ;) is my affair, literally. Luckily, I am not phased by what some people assume are the reasons I live my life the way I do.

[Vigil]

Lil, this would make it almost impossible to say anyhting, as you would be responsible for a context that someone else may take your comments in. I wouldn't want people to hold back from expressing an opinion for fear of upsetting someone they don't know on the other side of the world.

I appreciate that I posted a crappy ill-composed late night response, and Sixsense I apologise for what has happened to your thread.

I don't think its too hard a distinction to understand, married or not married - why else do so many people ask you?

My experience of open marriages is like Scotzoid's - usually one partner is not being honest and I can't find anyone who knows one that has been successful. Anyone?

Your situation Lil, is a new one for me, and you describe a mature loving issue that is being honestly explored. You know I wish you and Mr. Lil well in this, but the evidence of experience suggests that you are treading a dangerous path as you clearly understand.

[Lilith]

The issue I take is that you made assumptions as to the reasons people have made these choices and your assumptions were in my opinion unkind and I hope when you look back you realize that when you make assumptions about people just because they are or live differently than you do that you are compartmentalizing them in boxes. I know that you surely do not think I belong in the boxes you originally subscribed to those people who participate in open lifestyles. At least I hope you don't. Because I have always afforded you more respect than that and am sure you afford me the same.

I felt bad that the topic got off to such a bad start and that people have felt hurt but that is what judging and condemnation tend to wreak. Havoc.

[sweetlady]

You need to not take it personal. I'm entitled to the opinion that if I ran around having sex, I would be demeaning the sexual act and it would be "spreading my legs for anything that moved." That's my judgement of ME if I were to do that, WITH THE WAY THAT I FEEL ABOUT SEX. You don't view it the way I do. In case you hadn't noticed. Thus my judgements of a person who feels as I do and treats sex causally DON'T APPLY TO YOU, unless YOU apply them to yourself.

My point is that there's no need for you to be offended by my remarks unless you want to be.

[Vigil]

Not so Lil- but you are right, assumptions are the cause of much havoc and misery.

[Loulabelle]

My experience of open marriages is like Scotzoid's - usually one partner is not being honest and I can't find anyone who knows one that has been successful. Anyone?



I think that couples who have got the 'open marriage' thing right are often pretty discrete about with whom they share this information. Knowing your views on the issue, I also doubt they would ever let you in on that detail of their personal life, for fear of being attacked or thought less of.

By the way, your comment after Prophet's post about this thread not being meant for people who are not married jars with me, since it appears to be a response to what Prophet said about my relationship with Fussy. I'd have thought you'd have to be on a different planet not to realise that Fussy and I have just booked our wedding, since there have been at least 2 threads about it in the last couple of months.

We are in a position where we are going into marriage in a 18 months time, and have made it clear to each other the terms of our marriage. I feel that our sexual habits (and I would count sex with other partners in an open relationship to be part and parcel of 'our sex life') are not something to be shared and declared at the time of our wedding. Just as I'm not intending on making any vows about whether I'm going to particpate in oral sex, anal sex, or masturbation with or without my husband. Quite frankly it's no-one else's business but ours. I believe that the marriage vows referring to faithfulness (I know in the religious ceremony it is described as 'forsaking all others') mean emotional faithfulness, that is not being 'unfaithful'. I do not believe that a sexual act with someone outside of the marriage with the other partner's full knowledge and 'approval' is not being unfaithful, however I feel in a relationship where no such terms have been agreed that even a passionate kiss or the desire to have a relationship with another is unfaithful, if it is kept from the other partner.

My point, in short is that marriages differ for each couple in all sorts of details (are you the kind of couple who does everything together, or are you the kind of couple who have very separate lives? etc) and surely a couple's sex life is one of those details? I think that the traditional marriage ceremony is intentionally ambiguous about faithfulness and sexual fidelity (ironically, probably because it was thought up by a man!) and I think that people are let of that hook far easier than they are let off the one about 'honouring with thy body'. Methinks in the past when one partner ceases to consent to sex with their spouse, that the spouse feels that the contract of marriage has already been broken, allowing them the freedom to have sex with others.......and that aspect of the marriage vows is surely far more destructive.

[HarleyRider6769]

Irish , Well said . Their is someone out there for everyone , I think the problem today is "We' settle for the first thing that comes along then when He or She don't fit what "WE" want or "WE" see someone better looking "WE" walk away from our Chosen ones for what "WE" think is better .

IMHO if ya want to Fuck around don't get married , But there again I am an OLD Biker , and Have views that don't conform to Most People's Idea of Normal , So Who am I to Judge .

Now as to Changing Some other Country or religion to match ours , Let me ask you this "How would you feel if someone came to your country and told you How to act , Or treat your spouse ?"

Vigil I agree with you , Hang in there .

[HarleyRider6769]

WW , The Last time I checked , Majority Did rule . Or at least in my part of the country . So If the Majority define what marrage is the you either have to abide by it or break the law . In Most States Helments are required by Law , a Law I don't agree with but if I am in those States that requre me to wear a skid lid I do . Or pay the price . If ya don't like a law Change it , But don't get bent out of shape if someone fights you on it .

I have not called you a slut ( a Term I reserve for my ex-wife) Nor have I said you were Immature , or Ignorant . I think you are very Passionate in your views , and Believe strongly enough in them to stand up for them . I applaude you for this . I only wish more People did the same but saddly most people are Sheep and wish to be led .

Everyone has their own likes and dislikes thats why Baskin Robbins has 31 flavors , everyone has thier own tastes .

People like to Put down America , Talk about whats wrong Here . Well Folks I have been all over the world , Mid-East , Europe , South America , Africa . And Let me tell you This This is the Best Country On The Face Of Gods Earth . You think you have it bad , Hell you have a Fantastic life , what most would call poor in most Countries of the world you would be Middle Class .

[gekkogecko]

Scotzoid,

Yes, I have an open marriage. For the record, it started out that way. We originally didn't want to invite the state into our hapy lives. But, because we live in a oppressive patriarchial society, and much of that is bound up in property laws having to do with marriage, we were legally forced to get married.

We didn't let it change our relationship-including the recognition of that committed, loving relationship, that has lasted for over 14 years now. Far longer than most traditional marriages.

Currently, I have one lover and my wife has several. All are lovign, committed relationships. My relationship with my g/f has lasted for about three years, and my wife's relationships with her b/fs have also all been long-term ones as well.

No, things do not always go smoothly, but we did promise each other that we'd talk about things and work them out. And we always have.

As far as the other issues you raised-yes, occasionally we do worry about possible STDs. That's why we get tested, and ask our partners to get tested.

Am I worried about my wife "falling for" one of her boyfriends? Not really. It's our attitude that, contrary to society's teachings, because you happen to love someone desn't mean you have to stop loving someone else. My relationship with my wife, and her relationship with me is *not* predicated on the exclusion of others.

Are some couples meant for only one another? Of course. Different people are different, and there are many that rock on the exclusive, proprietary type of relationship glorified by our society. Cool for them.

As far as the contrary replies to this thread:

Vigil: :moon: :moon: :moon: :moon: :moon:

Irish: Thank you for providing evidence for my last paragraph.

Sweetlady: you rock

HR: Yes, the law is there. But remember, the law is there to uphold a hateful, destructive so-called morality that is every bit as repressive as it is claimed to be. So, no, I don't have any respect for that particular set of laws. And there *no* reason I should.

[maddy]

This is an interesting thread to say the very least. I really don't have much to add other than I have given it thought due to recently being told about a close friend's decision to give polamory a shot. And so far it's working for them.

Heck, I can't even find one relationship I am happy with, let alone multiples :)

I very much agree with gecko and Lilith though, what works for one person may not be the answer for another. It's just one more aspect of diversity that makes our world an interesting place to exist.

[sixsense]

I believe the ligist of the 1=1 argument in some cases here is a confusion of the western euro Christian symbol of marriage versus reality of what marriage entails.

http://www.arachnoid.com/lutusp/symbols.html



At that time, marriage had no special significance itself, it was merely a social signaling device, and to some extent it also represented a contract with mutual obligations

(page is a excellent read if you go through it)
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Separate item:

Please come back WW. I find your frankness refreshing.
:)

[Vigil]

At the risk of not following the excellent advice that the first thing that you should do when you realise that you have dug yourself into a hole, is to stop digging. May I remind evreyone (and with the humility to admit that my first post was wrongly composed) that I live in a different country with a different culture and different laws.

We have been dismantling state intervention in people's lives to the point whereby most (that I can think of) of the things that you refer to Gekko are not applicable in my country. I suppose that we have realised that you are damaging the institution of marriage if you force people to do it. We have seen a rise in so called honor killings here and our culture is rejecting any counter culture claim that they are in any way acceptable. Marraige is a personal choice (I am sure there are the shotguns still), but you will not be discriminated against for wishing not to be married. This covention is being extended to all gay relationships, but I am not sure how far exactly the legislation has gone.

It will therefore surprise you Gekko that I am in total agreement with you and in my world you would not have been forced into a hateful etc etc etc that is a "meaningless piece of paper". When I am talking about marriage and expressing my opinion that in my country I can't find anyone who has had a successful open marriage (and I don't include 3somes 4somes goups or whatever when both are involved) I am not thinking about your type of relationship because you wouldn't have had to let the state into your happy lives, nor am I talking about people in relationships that they consciously keep away from a state or church interference, I am only talking about two free adults who have chosen to make the committments to each other that are contained within our state and our state church ceremonies.

I am glad you have a great relationship as I do, they are different to be sure, mine is very akin to the last post by Sixsense. I can't ask Mrs. Vig's opinion at the moment because I have oppressed her into spending the whole of the summer in the Mediterranean whilst I stay at home working and being smug about the fruits of my Patriarchal domination.

[scotzoidman]

I've re-read my post to figure out if I seemed to be against the idea...Just for the record, I'm not, & I'm really happy for anybody that can make it work. I don't expect anybody to live by my rules, & I definitely don't let anyone tell me how to live mine (outside of anyone who has the power of law behind them). I merely stated that the one instance I knew of didn't work, but then, most of the other marriages I've been around didn't work out either! It's tough to get two people to agree to stay together long term, & my guess is that adding more personalities to the mix would strain things further...& again, for those who can make any kind of marriage work long term, my hat's off for you (& me too)

[WildIrish]

Sheep



Now there's something we can all get behind. :hot:

[sweetlady]

I did make one mistake in that, I don't think I made this part clear at all:

I do dislike and what angers me is people who have in the past started a "relationship" with me while they were married.

Specifically, this has happened with people who did NOT tell me they were married, which is a dispicable thing to do, IMO, especially since they KNEW I wanted potentially more from it.

[Sharni]

People like to Put down America , Talk about whats wrong Here . Well Folks I have been all over the world , Mid-East , Europe , South America , Africa . And Let me tell you This This is the Best Country On The Face Of Gods Earth . You think you have it bad , Hell you have a Fantastic life , what most would call poor in most Countries of the world you would be Middle Class .
I dont put down America....but i must say

Australia is the Best Country ON The Face Of The Earth :D:D:D:D

[Vullkan]

"WW , The Last time I checked , Majority Did rule . Or at least in my part of the country . So If the Majority define what marrage is the you either have to abide by it or break the law"

Mr ....rider

That is a very weak arguement--for in fact the majority doesn't rule. The laws of this country protect the minority as well as reflect the views of the majority in most cases. Have you ever wondered why there is the electorial college?--the same instrument that put Pres. Bush into office? It is a safe guard that if ever the masses elect incompetent Pres. the electorial college is there to save us from ourselves. Anti-discrimation laws are on the books to protect the rights of racial, ethnic, gender, etc, etc....groups from the majority.

Sad it takes time to change short sighted laws, that do infact discrimate--I am taking about same sex couples. More the pity that now it is a political weapon used by Dem/repubicans while many loving peoples suffer.

The fact is marriage is between two people (for now at least) and laws govern what marriage is and it defines rights and responsibilities. But what the law in just about every state misses is the simple fact that one person finds in another all the elements to make each other whole. True some make poor choices in marriage yet still it ought to be (marriage) a defining moment between the two of them for as ever long as it lasts--hopefully to death do they part.

Yet if in there contractual state sactioned or not by any law the find it desirable to be "open" or closed in their marriage, it is a matter for them and the rest of us ought to butt out and let them live life as they wish.

[nikki1979]

oh my, i just got around to readin this post, in my opinion if u and ur partner are totally 100% honest w each other and each of u can handle the thoughts of the other in anothers arms then hell ya go for it! jeeping and i have discussed it before and at this point were not against it and were not for it. were just not ready for it i think. i do belive there will be a time in our future that we will be ready for it, i do think for us its a totally sexual thing, basiicly itll prob be a deployment thing LOL those 3 month deployments go tho a shit load of batteries im tellin ya. im totally happy w just him but i dont feel that either of us shud curb our desires for that long a time , ive given him total permission to have a fling w someone, iwud have a prob if he saw this person long term tho, wich is why i dont think were ready for it rightnow.
((((((((((WW)))))))))))i think u are the best, weve not chatted to much but ive always luved hearin ur views and i totally respect u. please come back.

nikki

[huntersgirl]

<----is very confused :dizzy: I stopped reading halfway down page 2, and when I have more time I plan to read the rest. Maybe it will make more sense later! btw...my opinions on open marriage change all the time. So I think I am with Loulabelle, in that I just am not at a point that I could handle it.

[Kissy]

My husband and I have been married almost 5 years now. We have an open relationship and have from the begining. Every person is different, their views and their personality. How in the world can anyone think one thing will work for everyone? I took vows to love my husband for the rest of my life, to be honest with him and support him. I don't think that is much different from another person's marriage. We do what makes us happy. We have a strong family and I wouldn't want it any other way. :love:

[Oldfart]

Listen to Sharni,

In Australia, nobody really cares about your private life unless it impacts adversely

on ours.

We seem to lack the need to judge our neighbours, probably because it's just too much like hard work.

Should we rename us Pixiestralia?

[Lilith]

Listen to Sharni,

In Australia, nobody really cares about your private life unless it impacts adversely

on ours.

We seem to lack the need to judge our neighbours, probably because it's just too much like hard work.

Should we rename us Pixiestralia?
Explains my love for all of you glorious Aussies!

[scotzoidman]

Listen to Sharni,

In Australia, nobody really cares about your private life unless it impacts adversely

on ours.

We seem to lack the need to judge our neighbours, probably because it's just too much like hard work.

Should we rename us Pixiestralia?
For a long time I've believed that the biggest difference between our 2 cultures is that Oz is unencumbered with the myth of a Puritan heritage like we have here...but maybe you're right, we do have a lot of Type-A personality control freaks running the show...

[cowgirltease]

You need to not take it personal. I'm entitled to the opinion that if I ran around having sex, I would be demeaning the sexual act and it would be "spreading my legs for anything that moved." That's my judgement of ME if I were to do that, WITH THE WAY THAT I FEEL ABOUT SEX. You don't view it the way I do. In case you hadn't noticed. Thus my judgements of a person who feels as I do and treats sex causally DON'T APPLY TO YOU, unless YOU apply them to yourself.

My point is that there's no need for you to be offended by my remarks unless you want to be.


I don't take this personal. My ex tried to MAKE me feel this way but it didn't work. This is about MY needs, ME trying to express myself, NOT about LOVE. Love is what I felt for my husband. Not my sexual partners.

[flutelady]

I think every couple has the right to decide what sort of relationship they want to have..... what they want and don't want, can and can't handle, what the boundaries are and how and when and IF they should expand. I think as each couple decides these things and feels happy and settled with their choices, that those choices should be respected by everyone else. In other words, no judging the other guy. We're all entitled to have the kind of relationship that works FOR US, not for someone else.

That being said... while I have zero problem with someone who practices an open marriage lifestyle, I myself could not do so. I'm simply not "built" that way, that's all there is to it.

To each his own. I'm entitled to my choices, and you're entitled to yours. More power to us both.

[denny]

I think every couple has the right to decide what sort of relationship they want to have..... what they want and don't want, can and can't handle, what the boundaries are and how and when and IF they should expand. I think as each couple decides these things and feels happy and settled with their choices, that those choices should be respected by everyone else. In other words, no judging the other guy. We're all entitled to have the kind of relationship that works FOR US, not for someone else.

That being said... while I have zero problem with someone who practices an open marriage lifestyle, I myself could not do so. I'm simply not "built" that way, that's all there is to it.

To each his own. I'm entitled to my choices, and you're entitled to yours. More power to us both.

I think it is paramount that partners are comfortable and open-eyed about the behavior they practice. Indeed, many people connect and develop very serious emotions out of intimacy. This can certainly threaten an existing relationship regardless of the original intentions in an attempt at swinging.

And conversely, others can separate sexual behaviour from love. We are all different and should express ourselves accordingly. Someone who has insecurity, has no business being in an open marriage whether there S/O does or not.

Be true to thine own self.