You're sick kid, grow up.

[Belial]

Along with much laughter, I have also gotten occasional outrage in response to my "nothing's sacred" attitude to humour. Those outraged have been heard to claim that I am sick and should grow up. Personally I believe that it is them who is sick and in need of maturation.

Am I misguided here?

[Grumble]

nope I am much the same myself, I enjoyed Irish's arab joke immensly and laugh at the dark jokes that come from tragedy.

perhaps it is a way of coping with life

[scotzoidman]

If maturity means I can't enjoy the occassional sick joke (or any other kind of humor), I don't wanna grow up...

[Nice Guy]

Same here.

[Irish]

If maturity means I can't enjoy the occassional sick joke (or any other kind of humor), I don't wanna grow up...
I agree!To really enjoy yourself,you can't run your life,to others standards!
Being a good person is what really counts! Irish
P.S.At one time,another senior member,suggested that I put a "smiley" face,
so that people,would know that I was kidding.Sometimes,even that doesn't
stop people,from being offended.Everyones humor is different! :rolleyes:

[gekkogecko]

Belial,
we both know that you're sick.

What does that have to do with growing up? I refuse to do it.

[Lilith]

I have no problem with sick or even morbid humor (all a process of life) and do not see a correllation to maturity. However I find sexist, racist humor to be unappealing.

[Steph]

I'm with Lilith there.

I like your sense of humour, Belial, but I can see people being offended by some of the jokes (while we are LOLing at them). :)

[Catch22]

Keep in mind Belial is Australian and our humour has, like the English a lot of sarcasm and irony in it. A cultural thing.

[jseal]

Belial,

Some years ago, a Greek suggested that comedy represents human beings as "worse than they are," but noted that comic characters are not necessarily evil, just ridiculous and laughable.

Once your audience is large enough, your comic characters are bound to offend someone.

It is wise to not offend the powers that be. They are often unforgiving.

[Eros]

"I dont' wanna grow up, I"m a Toys R Us kid...."....LOL

[MilkToast]

please see signature line below for my opinions on all of this...

[dicksbro]

You all said it well. No problem here, either.

[Loulabelle]

LOL - what you have to remember, Belial, is that people often respond with 'shock' to something that is 'sick' because they know they should. It's almost like a role that they play in the banter.

I know for me, nothing shocks or embarasses me, but if someone says something in a situation where I SHOULD be embarassed (like when my other half makes a slightly inappropriate joke to the waitress in a restaurant or something) then I'll play the part of being shocked and respond with something like: 'Oh my God, darling! You can't say that! That's awful!'. It's almost like a way of acknowledging that someone's said something funny, but at the same time making it clear that you realise that what's being said is not socially acceptable, and that it is not in fact your personal opinion at all.

You'd soon know if someone REALLY had a problem with what you said: they probably wouldn't talk to you anymore, so I really wouldn't worry about it sweetie. Bollocks to whether other people think you should grow up, anyway......we are all growing up our whole lives and at different rates, so no one else can speed up the process for you.

[osuche]

I try not to get offended by what others say ~ life is too short to tie yourself up in knots. I have much better things to do with my time.

Of course, I tend to enjoy your sense of humor, Belial. :D

[darogle]

I'd say you're just in good company. Lenny Bruce, George Carlin, Richard Pryor, Andy Kaufman, Sam Kinison, ect. come to mind...

And to the naysayers of humor, I say "joke 'em if they can't take a fuck!"

[Belial]

Thanks for the support guys :)

I guess what I find more frustrating than "normal people" finding my humour offensive is when friends, or who I would have thought were friends. I'm just kind of sick of explaining myself to "friends" who don't get it in an effort to stop them going off in a huff, which seems to be futile anyway.

[Oldfart]

If you cannot shock those who know you, you're not trying hard enough.

We "shockers" often take unusual stances to force the people around us

to look at the world from new perspectives.

Those who can are the ones who see the joke, those who can't . . . . .

If we are being offensive just because we can, we are being unworthy of

ourselves.

Shock on!!

[Irish]

If you cannot shock those who know you, you're not trying hard enough.

We "shockers" often take unusual stances to force the people around us

to look at the world from new perspectives.

Those who can are the ones who see the joke, those who can't . . . . .

If we are being offensive just because we can, we are being unworthy of

ourselves.

Shock on!!
OF---How True! Irish

[sweetlady]

Much of it depends. If you know someone doesn't appreciate that sort of humor, why tell it around them? What good does it do you to intentionally cause unpleasantness?

I am deeply offended by death humor. I saw my mother killed when I was six. I saw one fiance after he had shot himself in the head. I had to identify another lover when he was in a car accident and there was barely anything to distinquish. These things cause deep anquish for me, they touch me in a profound and deep way.

Yet, I do not tell people this. Should I have to explain to a friend why death humor hurts me so deeply? Is this person much of a friend if they cannot simply accept that it hurts me deeply, and profoundly offends me, unless I tell them exactly why? And worse, if they know why, but persist, are they a friend?

I am simply giving you a different view. I cannot find 'death humor' to be funny. Being cruel and unfeeling towards me by making those jokes and comments won't change that. But it will hurt me, destroy the friendship, and in the end simply make the 'friend' look insensitive and brutal.

My point is that you never know why they are offended. You may be hitting a raw and painful emotional wound. Saying you are doing it for their own good is an excuse to be insensitive and cruel. Does it hurt you to not tell those jokes around them? Does it take something valuable away from your life to be considerate of them? If you do not tell those jokes around that person, have you LOST your sense of humor? What does it cost you to care about the feelings of others?

[Oldfart]

sweetlady,

If we held our tongues for fear of touching raw nerves, we would all have taken vows of

silence.

While we need to show care to not deliberately trample on the feelings and sensitivities

of others, to hold tight is a betrayal of our place in life (and this forum).

[Irish]

Much of it depends. If you know someone doesn't appreciate that sort of humor, why tell it around them? What good does it do you to intentionally cause unpleasantness?

I am deeply offended by death humor. I saw my mother killed when I was six. I saw one fiance after he had shot himself in the head. I had to identify another lover when he was in a car accident and there was barely anything to distinquish. These things cause deep anquish for me, they touch me in a profound and deep way.

Yet, I do not tell people this. Should I have to explain to a friend why death humor hurts me so deeply? Is this person much of a friend if they cannot simply accept that it hurts me deeply, and profoundly offends me, unless I tell them exactly why? And worse, if they know why, but persist, are they a friend?

I am simply giving you a different view. I cannot find 'death humor' to be funny. Being cruel and unfeeling towards me by making those jokes and comments won't change that. But it will hurt me, destroy the friendship, and in the end simply make the 'friend' look insensitive and brutal.

My point is that you never know why they are offended. You may be hitting a raw and painful emotional wound. Saying you are doing it for their own good is an excuse to be insensitive and cruel. Does it hurt you to not tell those jokes around them? Does it take something valuable away from your life to be considerate of them? If you do not tell those jokes around that person, have you LOST your sense of humor? What does it cost you to care about the feelings of others?
How would anyone know that you were offended,by such things,unless you
told them?Everyone,is different,but they can't read your mind! Irish

[sweetlady]

apparantly, these people have told him they are offended, or at least that was my interpretation.

I don't find it that hard to not be inconsiderate of others. A simple, obvious example might be to not make black jokes around your black friend (simply as a clear and obvious point) who is offended by them. That's not too much to ask, nor is it difficult, and it's nothing more or less than simple courtesy. Or telling gay jokes around your gay friend who is offended by them. Why is this so complicated and unmanageable? That makes no sense to me.

I mean, maybe I am misunderstanding and he's not telling jokes he already knew or pretty much guessed would offend, if so, then my points are invalid, because they are based on the idea he is making jokes around long time friends who he should know what kind of sense of humor they do (or don't) have.

[Lilith]

Humor does not necessarily refer to telling jokes. It may simply refer to what someone does or does not find funny. I would not tell a joke that I could not tell to *any* friend, be they gay, black, female, or whatever. That does not mean that I won't find many things funny, even things that make me say, "Now that's just wrong".

People are responsible for their own baggage and the world is not going to conform so as not to offend or cause them pain. As a friend, I would grow uncomfortable talking about any topic that caused another pain, but I would not avoid it. People have to deal with it, I've had to deal with my traumas, and I sure as hell would not expect the world to change just cause I was hurt. The world does not revolve around me, shocking, but true.

[Irish]

Lilith---One of my closest friends,in Conn,is black.I would constantly,tell him
black jokes & he would do the same with Irish jokes.It all depends on who is saying it to whom.Heaven help anyone else,that said them.I always say things to my daughters,that if anyone else said them,they'd be the grass &
I'd be the lawnmower!My wife says things to me ,that if anyone else said them,she'd,probably kick their asses! Irish

[sweetlady]

Interesting the double standards. "You must not treat others <this way> <that way> or < this other way >, but should you say they are not allowed to treat you that way, you are a prima donna." Consideration is for all, especially when the person has made it clear that "death jokes" are hurtful, or "sexual innuendos" make me uncomfortable, or etc. It still simply makes no sense to me why it is okay to do this to a friend? Can someone explain why you would have less consideration for friends than others?

[Loulabelle]

Sweetlady,

I can really see where you're coming from with this and I'm so sorry that you've had such horrible experiences which have left their mark on you (as they would on anyone).

It's worth remembering though, that different people have different ways of handling the hurdles that they've had to overcome and a common way of doing this is by developing a sense of humour. Often people who have a lot of experience with death (or racial hatred, sexism, homophobia etc) develop a black, politically incorrect sense of humour to help them deal with those traumas. Therefore in my experience it is usually the person you'd least expect who is telling the non PC joke (e.g. my step father was born and raised in Dublin and I know no-one who tells as many Irish jokes as he does).

While I agree that if we know someone has a particular sensitivity about a certain subject, then we should be considerate of their feelings that does work both ways. When someone makes a quip or a witty retort just because they think of it at the time, that person usually means no harm and if anything the joker in the pack is the one who has insecurities and wants to be enteraining and popular. By being offended by something when you know deep down in your heart that the person is a friend and meant no harm, you're touching THEIR raw nerve about whether they are a likable person.

In this case I highly doubt that the person(s) who've upset Belial, are off on their own little website or whatever torturing themselves about Belial's light hearted comment, but look at how Belial is feeling right now.

In my humble opinion, this world doesn't work without love and friendship and that means understanding, forgiveness and giving people the benefit of the doubt. I feel I know Belial pretty well and while his humour may be risque at times, I have no doubt that he wouldn't deliberately or knowingly hurt someone's feelings - he's one of the most sensitive guys I know.

So is it right that his so called friends should 'punish' him for a perhaps misplaced or inappropriate quip? We all make mistakes, we all put out feet in it at times, and it worries me that if we spend all our time minding our Ps and Qs because there might be someone who's offended, that in fact, we won't make jokes about anything and we'll end up living in a dull humourless world.

On a personal note, the time I wish people would be considerate to what 'others might have been through' is not when they're making jokes, but when they're driving their cars. As someone who was rear ended by a lorry last year, I have since come close to having panic attacks when someone's tail gating me and once nearly caused an accident because of it. I personally feel that being sensitive to others feelings on the road is a far more important issue than being sensitive to people's feelings when indulging in light hearted banter in the pub.

That, however, ain't never gonna happen so unfortunately I'm just gonna have to get over it.

[Belial]

apparantly, these people have told him they are offended, or at least that was my interpretation.

I don't find it that hard to not be inconsiderate of others. A simple, obvious example might be to not make black jokes around your black friend (simply as a clear and obvious point) who is offended by them. That's not too much to ask, nor is it difficult, and it's nothing more or less than simple courtesy. Or telling gay jokes around your gay friend who is offended by them. Why is this so complicated and unmanageable? That makes no sense to me.

I mean, maybe I am misunderstanding and he's not telling jokes he already knew or pretty much guessed would offend, if so, then my points are invalid, because they are based on the idea he is making jokes around long time friends who he should know what kind of sense of humor they do (or don't) have.

It's certainly not as simple as "don't tell gay jokes around your gay friends". Of the friends I have, very few - maybe a couple, who I'm not all that close with anyway - are apparently offended, and it's not any easy-to-pin-down "offensive category". It seems as if we're on completely different planets humour-wise, which is fine when I don't have to talk to them beyond the formalities of "Hi-how-are-you-still-alive-how's-work-how's-study-how's-family", etc, but if they're hanging around my other friends - who do get it - I find it difficult to think about "Oooh, mustn't offend X, she surely won't get this joke the way it's intended" when I'm in the midst of lively conversation.

[sweetlady]

Still doesn't sound like they're friends, just friendly aquaintances or even just "someone I hang out with," which is not the same catagory of person as is a friend.

I'll add this, as well, though. We tailor our conversations all the time to be considerate of others. You don't tell jokes about the company in front of the owner, for example. You don't scream "fire" in the theatre, even if it would be funny.

If you can hold those forms of jokes to a minimum around those friends, you aren't hurting anything. They DO have the right to tell you their boundaries and ask you not to cross them in an aggressive manner. Granted, you have the right to cross them anyhow, but the consequence may be that they begin to avoid you, and the friends you do want to see drift away with them, because through continuing it, you have forced them to choose... this friend or that one?

Also, remember this. You are the sum total of everything that you are. Because someone is offended by sexual innuendo, for example, doesn't mean they don't very clearly see your generous and friendly nature. Or your sincerity, or worthiness to be trusted. The many, varied, and endless variety of other things which make you who you are instead of someone else. Does what color you like your socks matter? Would you be heartbroken and feel rejected if the boss said, "from now on, wear blue socks."? It is a small part of your personality that you like brown socks. One small aspect of the wondrous and varied being you are. Even if you wear brown socks, you're still the same joking, easy-going, caring person. That's not changed simply because one aspect of your personality causes and abrasive friction with someone else. You retain the hopes, the dreams, the fears, the personality that you have, even if some small part of it is "no thanks" to some common aquaintances. They are not asking you to become someone else, to lose your personality. They are giving you fair, honest, and sincere warning, "If this continues, it will push me away" and face it... the others may follow.

It's a healthy boundary they are trying to establish with you. They are trying to help you to get along with them better. They are explaining how something you do feels like an aggressive attack on them and causes them great discomfort.

You can certainly choose to ignore this. You can certainly say that they are being babies and thinking everything is about them. You have the right to tell them to "suck it up" or even to "go to hell." Is it worth it? Which is easier, let that one small, insignificant part of your whole hide while they are around, or stand on "principle" of what your "rights" are, and possibly lose an entire circle of friends over it?

Keep in mind, though, when the "catagory" is not clear, then you can only do so much, and if you give it fair effort, then it becomes they who are being unreasonable, and this, your friends will see, as well, if they are intelligent and worth keeping.

[cowgirltease]

Belial....... you can call me a redneck anytime you want. See if I give a shit.
Just don't call me late for supper. :)

[Loulabelle]

Sweetlady,

All very valid points again, but, again, I have to say that the argument swings both ways.

If Belial's humour is such an insignificant part of him as a whole, can't these people overlook it?

I work in a very lively office where there is a huge amount of banter, sexual innuendo and A LOT of swearing. One of my colleagues in particular cannot go through a day without saying the word 'cunt' at least three times, accusing other male colleagues of being gay just because it winds them up and taking the piss out of just about every race on the planet. He also makes sexist jokes and teases just about everyone mercilessly.

I also work with a middle aged black female Jehovah's Witness, who chooses to live her life without doing any of the above things, presumably because she feels they are wrong and that they would be offensive. However, she thinks the world of our vulgar colleague since he's genuinely a very kind, polite person and not a thing that comes out of his mouth is meant to be taken seriously. Just the other day she said to him, 'You're a very poite man, aren't you Dave?' as he has a good telephone manner and is very good at putting people at their ease.

My point is that consideration and toleration does have to go both ways, and if it can work in the extreme example I have given here, then I don't see why other less extreme personalities can't get along just fine.....it's all about live and let live.

[sweetlady]

If Belial's humour is such an insignificant part of him as a whole, can't these people overlook it?

Because he is actively causing friction. He is striking against something that obviously distresses them, and quite simply doesn't care. Expecting the whole world to be jehovah's witnesses that ignore all rudeness and hatefulness from other people isn't really very realistic.

If someone went around poking someone in the ribs with a stick, we wouldn't berate the pokee for not tolerating it. But if it's verbal or mental poking, then suddenly the person on the recieving end is the one at fault for objecting. I wonder.

EDIT: By the way, I DO feel differently about "friends" or "constant aquaintances" like coworkers. That is what I am talking about, not just general people you'll pass by or encounter only at rare times. No, it's not reasonable to expect that you know what will offend people you don't know. But to deliberately attack friends with something you know bothers them because you think it's funny is wrong. That's my opinion. I don't do it. I don't stay around people who do it for very long. That's not a good friend, in my opinion.

[Loulabelle]

Where in any of Belial's posts has he said he was 'actively causing friction' or 'deliberately attacking friends with something he knows bothers them because he thinks it's funny'?

I can see you feel strongly about this and have obviously had some personal experience of it, but just because you've got pain from other people's behaviour to you, it's never wise to assume you know exactly what happened in another case if you weren't even there.

[sodaklostsoul]

Well Belial all I can say is to each his own. If they don't like your humor they can always walk away. Unless you have tied them to the chair. LOL.

I like you and your humor Belial. :)

[sweetlady]

Where in any of Belial's posts has he said he was 'actively causing friction' or 'deliberately attacking friends with something he knows bothers them because he thinks it's funny'?

I can see you feel strongly about this and have obviously had some personal experience of it, but just because you've got pain from other people's behaviour to you, it's never wise to assume you know exactly what happened in another case if you weren't even there.

Read his first post. He has stated that they are offended, he does it anyhow. However, I have also qualified my reactions because he also said that it's not a clear area, thus making it hard to avoid accurately, and that this would be somewhat different, but still worth trying. Deliberately making jokes that you know to be offensive to people is a form of attack. Worse, if it's at their expense, which there is no indication whatsoever that he is doing.

[Loulabelle]

I'm afraid I'm still inclined to disagree.

If Belial has to make a deliberate attempt not to crack jokes that would offend his acquaintances, how can it be said that he was deliberately making the jokes?

He is simply being himself, not going out of his way to offend people. Even if he tried to modify his behaviour, there would be the odd moment where he would lapse, so he sees little point in bothering.

And how about the fact that he is being attacked by being told he is 'sick' and should grow up? Hasn't anyone told his acquaintances that name calling is not a very grown up thing to do and that 'going off in a huff' is certainly not either. How about a more grown up reaction from the people he's offended? What's wrong with them saying 'I'm sorry Belial, but I find what you've said offensive' rather than just calling him a name, dispensing some impossible to follow advice (how on earth does someone just 'grow up'?) and then storming off, before he's had a chance to apologise, defend himself or anything.

By the way, Belial, I do apologise that I keep talking about you to Sweetlady as though you aren't here! You know I love ya! x

[Belial]

Not a problem at all Lou :)

No-one has really told me to grow up or that I'm sick. It's more a general impression I get. I should give a concrete example. Let's call the girl involved 'C'.

C has a new boyfriend. She remarks that he is metrosexual. I think immediately of the etymology of the word that Wicked Wanda posted a while ago and start laughing. C asks why I'm laughing. Another friend, B, explains that we have something of a running joke involving that word, that the word "metrosexual" means "motherfucker". C interprets this as me calling her boyfriend a motherfucker and yells her protest at me. She is absolutely not interested in hearing the basis for the joke. This is normal for C. She's too busy being offended by what I have to say to wonder why I might say it and actually engage in some sort of dialogue.

I am certainly not trying to offend C at all. The problem is that I'm finding it basically impossible to express myself (and this extends to more than jokes) without offending her or upsetting her or "making [her] feel stupid" or make her feel as if she's "talking to a 25 year old".

If I didn't like her at all this would pose no problem, because I wouldn't care. But that's not the case.

[jseal]

Belial,

I have found people like 'C' everywhere. Not twice a day everyday, but they seem to be unavoidable. They are part of the landscape, so I accept that I'll have to work around them. It may be inconvenient, but doing so results the least net negative to my life.

I wish I had something more upbeat to offer.

[sweetlady]

I would have wanted to laugh, too, I'm afraid. :D

It sounds like she's extremely insecure, and I would venture to guess that she thinks you are cool, and that for whatever reason, percieves that you look down on her. In that case, it seems she took it as a criticism of her for her choice in boyfriends.

I'm curious, have you spoke to her privately for a few minutes? "I realize that sometimes my humor is odd, please, when it hurts your feelings, can you let me explain before you get upset? Often times, it comes off differently than how it really is, and I know your feelings have been hurt by that. I would like to be able to explain to tell you what I really mean, because it is never my intent to mock or hurt you. Would you give me that chance when you think I am making jokes about you, before you accept that assumption?"

If you speak to her in this manner, then you have covered yourself, and if she chooses to continue to be offended, that's her own choice. Once you make it very clear to her that she has taken things out of context without giving you chance to explain yourself, and have made it clear you sincerely don't mean to hurt or offend her, then the ball is in her court.

[Belial]

I would have wanted to laugh, too, I'm afraid. :D

It sounds like she's extremely insecure, and I would venture to guess that she thinks you are cool, and that for whatever reason, percieves that you look down on her. In that case, it seems she took it as a criticism of her for her choice in boyfriends.

I'm curious, have you spoke to her privately for a few minutes? "I realize that sometimes my humor is odd, please, when it hurts your feelings, can you let me explain before you get upset? Often times, it comes off differently than how it really is, and I know your feelings have been hurt by that. I would like to be able to explain to tell you what I really mean, because it is never my intent to mock or hurt you. Would you give me that chance when you think I am making jokes about you, before you accept that assumption?"

If you speak to her in this manner, then you have covered yourself, and if she chooses to continue to be offended, that's her own choice. Once you make it very clear to her that she has taken things out of context without giving you chance to explain yourself, and have made it clear you sincerely don't mean to hurt or offend her, then the ball is in her court.

Done it, many times. She always tells me not to worry about it and that we just see things differently, but how can I not worry about upsetting a friend? :(

[sweetlady]

You can not worry about it by accepting two things. 1. You've done what you can, and spoken to her about it, and she rejects your attempts to create peace. 2. She is unpredictable, over-sensitive, and unreasonable.

You do have a responsibility. You have covered it. You can do that much, and no more. It's unfortunate that SHE HAS DECIDED that your private conversations and reassurances are not good enough.

I once told a friend who was breaking up with his psychotic ex... "You can only be as kind to her as she allows you to be." Meaning, at some point, the responsibility leaves you, and arrives at their doorstep. If you've spoken to her, and sought hard to reassure her, then you can do no more because you've laid the responsibility square at her feet and she has chosen to ignore it.