Let's discuss getting rid of the BBW moniker, ladies, shall we?

[AZRedHot]

You know, for a long time, I was okay with the BBW label, because it indicated that women of size were beautiful, too, in a world that so rarely indicated that was the case. And then the men stepped up, too, (and have here at Pixies as well), to indicate their love of the soft, comfy curves of a voluptuous, zaftig woman--one with a little more sand in the hourglass--just as much as they love the more traditional standards of beauty.

But the more I live, and the more I see and appreciate the diversity of beauty that exists in the people, women and men, all around me, I wonder if the distinction needs to be made anymore. Why not just beautiful women? Aren't we? Of course we are. Somehow, starting off with the "big" seems to be a warning flag: We're beautiful...for big girls. Like we are possessed of some brand of discount beauty...there's beauty, and then there's big beauty. I don't buy it.

Segregating ourselves with a label just has us enforcing the same fascist beauty standards we've always fought against on ourselves, and I'm not sure I'm willing to be complicit in my own derogation.

I don't know, I'm feeling feisty about this. What do you think? Despite the title of this thread, the gents are as welcome as the ladies to share their feelings on this. I'm very interested in your thoughts folks, so don't hold back.

Red

[jennaflower]

Personally... I consider myself BBW... not because I am a "Big" (tho I am) but because I am a "Beautiful BOLD woman" :)

[dreamgurl]

well considering that a size 12 is considered big now, it's kinda hard to get rid of the saying, yeah i hear it all the time " man she's cute but she's chubby" sometimes i just want to be like up yours buddy. i guess it all comes down to how you view the word "big" personaly i find it to be liberating in the sence that it does set me appart from the croud that i can be the size that i am ( 16) and still be pretty
anyway that was my two cents

[AZRedHot]

Now THAT I can get behind, Jenna! Good for you! Although, somehow I'd believe you were bold and beautiful, regardless of label. Would a rose by any other name smell as sweet? Methinks it would.

[AZRedHot]

Hi Dreamgurl,
You're right...it might be hard to get rid of, but I'm more concerned with us applying it to ourselves, and not appreciating ourselves 100%. Kind of a "we must be the change we wish to see in the world" deal. :D

[dreamgurl]

yeah that is true i guess we will have to go get pleather and 6 inch high calf boots and shout girl power ( joke) i used to love the spice girls

[Prophet Reality]

Here is my 2 cents or lease. I have always been raised to see the beauty that is within a person, whether male or female, big or small, short or tall. It is what is within that truly counts. ALL the women and men here are beautiful in they're own special way. Some may show it more than others, but we are all beautiful.

[AZRedHot]

Shopping and girl power, Dreamgurl? I am SO THERE! I want the real leather though (sorry to all the vegetarians out there).

[Mercury_Maniac]

Bold
Beautiful
Women

^i thought thats what it stood for

[Mercury_Maniac]

or

Big
Breasted
Women

[AZRedHot]

It appears to be both, Mercury Maniac. I just knew this thread would be educational. ;)

Red

[Loulabelle]

I have to say that until I came to Pixies I didn't even know what BBW was. I think it is a more American thing than anything else.

I'm not sure if I count as a BBW or not, to be honest. The figures say that I am (my dress size, my weight etc) but my figure says I'm not. I am genuinely curvy: I have very large breasts, a small rib cage with not too much excess flesh attached and a rounded bottom.

My point is, that I think my body is beautiful (otherwise I would not post pictures here) but I have found in real life I am often overlooked by people, because I am bigger than your average woman. I post pictures here to show that underneath my clothes, I am as perfectly formed as the next woman - just scaled up slightly.

I do this in the hope that both men and women will begin to learn to look beyond the immediate size issue and appreciate the body's form, without comparing it to others.

Having said that, to be honest as long as I think I'm beautiful and as long as I'm healthy, who gives a flying monkey's arse what anyone else thinks of me. They don't have to fuck me, do they?!

[Englishlush]

Jesus! A size 12 is large?????????? Oh hang on I guess that's an american 12 but even so I wouldn't say that's "big"!

I go for "beauty is in the eye of the beholder (or beer-holder)" - whichever you prefer!

[thereIam]

Well, lacking a flying monkey's arse to contribute, I will just inject a few psychotic insights into the thread.

Each and every single individual is beautiful in their own uniqueness. If everybody had the shape basic size or shape, it would be a very dull world indeed.

Labels are merely tools used by society to force us to conform to the "accepted" belief structure. A pox on all of that shit.

Everyone of us is a beautiful masterpiece, worthy of much praise and admiration. And Pixies is the perfect showcase for proving the accuracy of this, mine own opinion.

[osuche]

I am sick of all the labels...I have been called a "bitch" because I am opinionated, a "slut" because I like sex, a "kiss-ass" because I am successful at my job, a "brain" because I am an engineer...and a "BBW" because I wear a size 12.

All these terms are correct in some way, but none of these monikers describes me accurately. People who are worth my time take a second look and notice this fact.

But, (((Red))) sometimes it bugs me too.

[musicman]

I think if people don't appreciate you for who you are as a person and don't bother to take the time to get to know you, they arent' worth your time....

and I think that applies to other monikers as well....

[AZRedHot]

Loulabelle, I don't know if you qualify either, but I'm dead certain you qualify as a beautiful woman, and that's the point I'm trying to make. thereiam seems to agree with my point that we should overthrow the labels, I think--I second the pox. I'm not really fighting the machine that would call me a BBW--that's too big a job--but rather the internal labels we put on ourselves when we post, when we think about ourselves.

In discussing it with my husband, he pointed out that some folks prefer a pleasingly plump woman, and the "BBW" label helps them find these women quickly and easily in the collection of beauty that is the women of Pixies, a shared vocabulary.

[Sharni]

<====Has no problem with labels

There are worse things to be called.....i got better thing ta do with my life than worry about what ppl call me to be honest

[AZRedHot]

Gotcha.

[bordendazed]

Labels are both a blessing and a curse - especially PC ones.

I think it's OK if you are not offended, and I propose adding one:

SSW = Skinny, Sickly Waif.

You must be proud of what you are and others WILL judge, or pre-judge, and it THEY need a lable to understand - so be it.

It's not what THEY see that matters it's what YOU see.

[AZRedHot]

I appreciate the humor of the "SSW," and must admit that in darker days I got my kicks commenting on them myself. However, I don't want to engage in the reverse size-ism (nice--I'm making up words now) and indicate that a woman who who isn't a D-cup and possessed of a significant booty is somehow less a woman. That would be counter to my whole point. This may well be my "stuff," and I'm generally happy to ruminate in isolation, but the temptation of soliciting the opinions of like, and open, minds was too great, hence the thread. Thanks all who have, and who will, continue to weigh in on the matter.

Red

[Lilith]

Red~ I understand your point and have similar views. I object to being labeled in general personally. I also think it's completely unnecessary to say I am a BBW.

B~ if you look at me it's obvious I am not diminutive

B~ it's not my size that makes the people who find me beautiful feel that way, so it seems like linking the size and the attribute a contrived pairing to somehow make the second B applicable to the first. What if I were big and a wretched person whose ugly heart showed on her face? Beauty is not related to size. I know psycho bitches of every size and shape.

W~ this is the one part of the label I will gladly accept. I am indeed a woman. There are a zillion features both external and personality-wise that comprise what type of woman and to limit it to saying BBW does who I am an injustice.

I think when describing one's appearance they often find it easy to say ..."I'm a BBW." it rids you of many insensitive types immediately and attracts the people who don't view size as an important factor in beauty. I don't have an issue with it being used and think people should labels themselves with what ever they are comfortable with or not. Those two Bs just would not be my first choice to connect with the W when describing me.

[AZRedHot]

Originally posted by Lilith
I think when describing one's appearance they often find it easy to say ..."I'm a BBW." it rids you of many insensitive types immediately and attracts the people who don't view size as an important factor in beauty. I don't have an issue with it being used and think people should labels themselves with what ever they are comfortable with or not. Those two Bs just would not be my first choice to connect with the W when describing me.

I think you make an excellent point here that I hadn't really considered in any but the vaguest way, in that it can be a weed-out tool. That was a fear I had, as well, before I posted and received such a warm and accepting response.

Veddy interesting...

[BadChicken]

AZRed, I can see your point of view. However, in my opinion, I like the BBW title.
For example, if I'm looking at a written description of erotic material(like on another website), I'll be more inclined to check out the BBW material than the non-BBW specific stuff.
I realize, of course, that this is my own opinion and doesn't carry much influence, but it's the way I am.
I've never looked at it as being detrimental at all. It just makes finding what I'm looking for a whole lot easier, instead of having to sift through tons of skinny porn.

[Oldfart]

Loulabelle, yes we do.

I'm one of those people who has to put labels on people, like

Lilith, Pantyfanatic, Loulabelle etc because if I don't, people don't

know who I'm talking to/about.

Other labels are optional.

[Lilith]

OldFart is it a lick-n-stick label??

[having_fun]

I learn something new every day... I have been wrong about the meaning of BBW all these years... I had always assumed it stood for Big Busted Women, regardless of the size of the rest of them.

So see, in my eyes you are all beautiful... Just some of you are "BB" Big Busted.... ha ha...

[SuccubusKitty]

Well, despite my size, (between an 18 and a 22 US) I have never thought of myself as a BBW. Not to say that I don't think of myself as a large woman, because I do, and I would like to lose a few dress sizes. But I am also 5'10" with a medium frame. This automatically means that if I was to get below a size 12/14 that I would start to look too thin for my body in my opinion, because even though I am large, I also tend to look smaller due to my size. People always tend to think that I am 20 - 40 pounds less than I actually am.
Of course human beauty comes in a myriad of shapes, sizes, and colors so it really shouldn't matter.

[Aqua]

I too think the label BBW is too inclusive. Just because you are a larger female does not make you beautiful, and I've known plenty of thin women that I would not describe with that word. Some of those were attractive, but only on the outside. For me, 'BBW' is helpful for finding groups of pictures featuring curvy women. Or, to put it bluntly, chubby women. (Hey, I know what I like. ;) ) Either way, in the search results I don't find every single woman beautiful to look at, but I do find quite a few. And to be honest, at that point I've got my cock in hand and it's all about the outer appearance. :p

[AZRedHot]

I must have been having a sensitive day that day. To be perfectly honest, some cheeky bastard in a chat referred to me that way (in our first chat, within 5 minutes), and it set me off, because while I'm a strapping girl, pretty cute, and in fact female, I wouldn't have applied it to myself, and it really put me off to be labeled by a stranger.

The BBW label something I have avoided, and will continue to avoid, in my references to myself, and by now, everyone at Pixies has a pretty good idea of what they're going to see when they open my pics, so I don't know that I need to advertise my curvaliciousness in that manner. But the label may not be the downfall of Western Civilization as we know it. :D I don't mind being referred to as "chubby" even, as Aqua mentions. It's an adjective, rather than a label. What's the difference? Is it just semantic? I don't think so. I guess an adjective is just that. But a label is, oh I don't know, ascribing a whole bunch of other stuff. Chubby is chubby. No more, no less. But BBW seems like a lifestyle, and it isn't. I can see the men's point--it allows them to find what they're looking for, and that's valid.

[Aqua]

Mmmmmmm, chubby ;)

[AZRedHot]

Looks like you've got a chubby rith there, Aqua. ;)

[SuzyQ]

Segregating ourselves with a label just has us enforcing the same fascist beauty standards we've always fought against on ourselves, and I'm not sure I'm willing to be complicit in my own deroga

[SuzyQ]

Sorry, meant to ask what are fascist beauty standards?

Not sure what is meant by this...

[GingerV]

Late to the party, I know, but it's never stopped me having an opinion.

I've had quiet, internal cringefests when friends have proudly adopted the BBW moniker. They're friends, I love them, I'll support them if this is how they want to fit into the world around them. I understand that it's empowering in a way, because all too often...the words big (chubby, large, fat, curvy, insert rounded choice) and beautiful are antithetical in our society. Pairing them is an act of rebellion, of affirmation, of taking back the word beautiful from those who beat women over the head with it. It's the equivalent of the movements in the gay community to take back the words used to negate them. Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, there are lots of examples of intentional adoption of labels.

And I get that. Really I do. But I feel that society already makes women WAY too obsessive about their dress size...and I'd rather my friends think of themselves as beautiful women, rather than continue to make their identity a relative term. Big? Compared to who? Compared to what? I'd have preferred Cuvaceous Cuties. Or even Busty Babes. But here's the thing...it's not my call. And that's really the least of my objections.

Since first seeing this thread yesterday, though, you folks have changed my mind about one of my objections to the label. I hadn't realized how much until I tried to set out the argument here. At one point, part of my problem was that I thought BBW fetishized large women. I still think it does, I'm starting to wonder how big a problem that is. God knows, we've all got twists...THAT'S certainly not the problem. I was worried that it was seen as a warning label or an appology, as well as a search critera. But I don't think it is any more, I take Liliths point that it's a "love it or leave it" label. I'm still disappointed it's necessary....people have no excuse to be nasty to each other...we all have feelings, and they can all get hurt. I suppose some part of me feels the need for the "get over it" part of the old gay pride marching anthem...but I guess that's happening too, just in different ways?

So here's my 2cents (finally ;) )....maybe, so long as the BBW moniker is of use and benefit to those who want it...it should stay. But I can still quietly look forward to the day when everyone realizes that size is an irrelevance, and that beauty is just the radiance of the soul.

[AZRedHot]

Thanks, GingerV, for your very thoughtful response. I agree with you--it's that cringefest that got me started on this thread.

As for "fascist beauty standards," SuzyQ, those are the ones that indicate you must be ultra thin, yet with big boobs (and since this happens all too rarely in nature, you're gonna have to buy those boobs). "Fascist beauty standards" are those that say if you don't look like the girls in the magazine, or porn, you're right out. And it applies to our thin sisters as well--if they're too skinny, lacking the requisite amount of T and A, well, then, I'm sorry, they don't measure up either. FBSs are those we've internalized and make women cringe when we read magazines, or freak out when our SOs look at porn, because we know we don't look like that, and despite intellectually knowing better, we still worry that he wants her, not us.

[thrushbeard]

My issue with all of this is less with the label itself and more with what I see as the bigger issue, which is a culture that works against people being "comfortable in their own skin" (I love that thought, can't remember where I heard it first). A lot of people have problems with their body image, particularly women, and it saddens me when a woman cannot truly be herself because she believes she has "too much of this" or "not enough of that." I know I've loved women who have told me that they can't understand why anyone would be attracted to them, one actually told me that anyone who found her attractive must have something wrong with them (thanks for telling me a couple of years into our relationship - it didn't last long after that). I think my issue is with anything that contribute to holding someone back from being themselves in the most fulfilling way possible.

[AZRedHot]

Amen, Thrushbeard. Preach on, brother. And my chatting with men at Pixies indicates that the culture of body hate is not limited to women, either.

I have spent the evening going through my most recent photoshoot, and I'm just thrilled with the results. There was a time in my life when every picture on the roll ended up in the garbage, and to be at a point in my life where I've finally stopped arguing with my hubby when he tells me I'm beautiful as-is is the best feeling ever. Hell of a lot of hard work, let me tell you, but well worth it. I'm sorry your former lover felt that way, and I'm even sorrier that it's such a common theme for women and men everywhere. I know the problem is bigger than the label, but maybe we can start there, and move on to the more insidious ones one by one. Goddess knows, if we could just get women to see and believe in their own beauty, there would be a cosmic revolution. Of that I have no doubt. If that happened, labels, institutions, and walls would fall like Jericho.

[Loulabelle]

Originally posted by AZRedHot
But BBW seems like a lifestyle, and it isn't. I can see the men's point--it allows them to find what they're looking for, and that's valid.

I think you've hit on an interesting point here.

The thing I dislike about the BBW label is the underlying attitude which seems to go with it.

In fact I feel there are two possible attitudes which come across when a woman labels hereself as a BBW:

1) The 'I'm big but I'm beautiful - honest!' kind of attitude, which is very unconvincing. I think there are some women who wear the BBW label because they're trying to convince themselves that they are beautiful, because in reality they don't feel that they are.

2) The 'I'm big and I don't give a shit' attitude which comes across as brash and arrogant (not attractive traits in anyone). There are larger women in the world, who seem to use the label as a passcard to allow themselves to behave badly, be rude and obnoxious etc.

For me, the danger of the BBW label is that women who give themselves this title are at risk of being categorised as having one attitude or the other and in my opinion neither of these attitudes are positive or healthy.

[nikanik]

I find that its weird as hell to have to justify your beauty with a label anyway. Historically and in alot of cultures the bigger the woman the more beautiful she is. But ever since Twiggy, a person who definately needs a ham sandwich, thin has been in.

[AZRedHot]

I totally agree with you, Loulabelle. The attitude you describe, particularly #1, is what I have felt with the whole thing, but could not put into words. You've articulated it beautifully--thank you. I think #2 is just an extroverted version of #1--bravado masking insecurity. I'll tell you I'm fat before you have a chance. Preemptive strike, as it were. I've done it myself.