Opinions!

[Irish]

!!!!
THIS SAYS IT BETTER THAN I'VE EVER HEARD.
Subject: BRAVO ANDY ROONEY!!!! Right on, Andy Rooney! Andy Rooney said on 60 minutes a few weeks back:
(for those of you that don't know Andy Rooney, he is an 82 year old US TV commentator)
I don't think being a minority makes you a victim of anything except numbers. The only things I can think of that are truly discriminatory are things like the United Negro College Fund, Jet Magazine, Black Entertainment Television, and Miss Black America. Try to have things like the United Caucasian College Fund, Cloud Magazine, White Entertainment Television, or Miss White America; and see what happens. Jesse Jackson will be knocking down your door.
Guns do not make you a killer. I think killing makes you a killer. You can kill someone with a baseball bat or a car, but no one is trying to ban you from driving to the ball game.I believe they are called the Boy Scouts for a reason, that is why there are no girls allowed. Girls belong in the Girl Scouts! ARE YOU LISTENING MARTHA BURKE?
I think that if you feel homosexuality is wrong, it is not a phobia, it is an opinion.I have the right "NOT" to be tolerant of others because they are different, weird, or tick me off.
When 70% of the people who get arrested are black, in cities where
70% of the population is black, that is not racial profiling, it is the Law of Probability.
I believe that if you are selling me a milk shake, a pack of cigarettes, a newspaper or a hotel room, you must do it in English! As a matter of fact, if you want to be an American citizen, you should have to speak English!
My father and grandfather didn't die in vain so you can leave the countries you were born in to come over and disrespect ours. I think the police should have every right to shoot your sorry self if you threaten them after they tell you to stop. If you can't understand the word "freeze" or "stop" in English, see the above lines.
I don't think just because you were not born in this country, you are qualified for any special loan programs, government sponsored bank loans or tax breaks, etc., so you can open a hotel, coffee shop, trinket store, or any other business.
We did not go to the aid of certain foreign countries and risk our lives in wars to defend their freedoms, so that decades later they could come over here and tell us our constitution is a living document; and open to their interpretations.
I don't hate the rich. I don't pity the poor. I know pro wrestling is fake, but so are movies and television. That doesn't stop you from watching them.
I think Bill Gates has every right to keep every penny he made and continue to make more. If it ticks you off, go and invent the next operating system that's better, and put your name on the building. Ask your buddy that invented the Internet to help you. (Al)
It doesn't take a whole village to raise a child right, but it does take a parent to stand up to the kid; and smack their little behinds when necessary, and say "NO!"
I think tattoos and piercing are fine if you want them, but please don't pretend they are a political statement. And, please, stay home until that new lip ring heals. I don't want to look at your ugly infected mouth as you serve me French fries!
I am sick of "Political Correctness." I know a lot of black people, and not a single one of them was born in Africa; so how can they be "African-Americans"? Besides, Africa is a continent. I don't go around saying I am a European-American because my great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather was from Europe. I am proud to be from America and nowhere else.

[GingerV]

Sorry Irish, you got fooled again.

Run this through Snopes (urban legend debunking site), and you'll see it's a cut down version of a fake that's been forwarded around the internet for a while now.

I know you didn't know it was a fake. I know it was probably sent to you by someone else, and you just thought you'd share it with us. But it's still a fake, and it's not fair on Mr. Rooney to have these words put into his mouth unrefuted. In Fact, Mr. Rooney has refuted this piece (more specifically the longer one)....as quoted on Snopes he said:


"About a year ago, I became aware of a more serious theft of my name and it is so hurtful to my reputation that it calls for legal action against the thief. Hundreds of people have written asking if I really wrote the 20 detestable remarks made under my name that have had such wide circulation on the Internet.

[...]

Some of the remarks, which I will not repeat here, are viciously racist and the spirit of the whole thing is nasty, mean and totally inconsistent with my philosophy of life. It is apparent that the list of comments has been read by hundreds of thousands of Americans, many of whom must believe that it accurately represents opinions of mine that I don't dare express in my column or on television. It is seriously damaging to my reputation."


Basically, it's a good principle that if you didn't HEAR someone say something, and you get a surprising or improbable quote from them sent to you....it's a good idea to check it before accepting it as true.

Thought you'd like to know....not trying to be mean or judgemental in any way.

[LixyChick]

And......just on a curious note here Irish (because I am just that...the curious one)........

Did you admire Andy Rooney (before you knew it was fake) for speaking out like this? Do you agree with the erroneous statements?

I ask because even though they can't be attributed to Mr. Rooney......there IS someone out there that believes in them enough to have written them down. And, as sad as it is for me to say, I actually know of some people who would agree with all the statements wholeheartedly.

[jseal]

Gentlefolk,

I too have seen this one do the rounds. There is a similar one attributed to Mr. Vonnegut. I guess that the author’s intent was to lend credence to the claims by associating then with a celebrity. The one purporting to be a commencement speech given by Mr. Vonnegut is rather well done (another way of saying I liked it).

Which of these assertions do you think are wrong? Why?

[Irish]

I forwarded this from an e-mail,sent to me.I have not seen Mr.
Roony,except when,my wife,is watching 60 Mins.While I don't
agree with everything,I DO agree with some things.Alot of my
aquaintences of ALL races do also.That is why it's titled "Opinions"
Irish

[jseal]

Irish,

Hey, don’t sweat it. Just last month, I started a “Nemo Found” thread when I received a JPEG, only to find out later that it had already passed though!

With many threads popping into existence and fading from sight, reruns are inevitable.

I do think Bill Gates has every right to keep every penny he made and continue to make more. Microsoft’s antics HAVE ticked off many, many people, and Linux HAS been invented and it IS a better OS. Mr. Gore, while he did not, in fact, assert that he created the internet (that was a wickedly effective slight of hand by the Republicans in 2000), he was involved in its realization. Hoo boy did he mishandle THAT one!

[LixyChick]

I don't think being a minority makes you a victim of anything except numbers. The only things I can think of that are truly discriminatory are things like the United Negro College Fund, Jet Magazine, Black Entertainment Television, and Miss Black America. Try to have things like the United Caucasian College Fund, Cloud Magazine, White Entertainment Television, or Miss White America; and see what happens. Jesse Jackson will be knocking down your door.

Well jseal......since you asked!!!!!!!

Every racist I know (and, unfortunately, I know a lot) has used that (above) statement in some context or another (maybe to a lesser degree because they were too ignorant to think it through, as this author did, and come up with names for their fictitious "superior" white groups)......to justify why they feel they aren't "the ones" who are racist....but the groups that already exist HAVE to be if it is an acceptable practice to eliminate any but a specific ethnic group from a particular event or genre! Usually......the very next thing out of the mouths of these people is......"I have a [black, puerto rican, indian, oriental (pick one)....etc.] friend, so how can I be the one considered a racist when *they* are the ones eliminating me because of my skin color"?

Also.......ok...ok.....so we are a melting pot.....and with that in mind, we have so many languages to contend with.......and so what if some people can't speak "American"........I mean, really.....so what? Not every non-English speaking immigrant breaks the law. And so again I say, this statement, too, is a racial slur! Just because we (American speaking folks) can't understand their particular language...doesn't mean they are inferior. Most immigrants who do become citizens know more of the laws of the land and our constitution than those who are native born!

Blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! I fight this side of the battle at least once a week where I live! I'm the minority in my neck of the woods. Not because I am a woman either......but because I stand up to, and challenge the intellect, of every racist I encounter! It usually ends up with them backing down (with a smirk on their face) and then going off to whisper to their "in the closet" racist friends.....to steer clear of me or they'll end up in an argument over my misguided notions of inferiority and superiority!!!!!!

*gotta get off this soapbox now*

Where the hell is my "POWER TO THE PEOPLE" smilie???? :D JK....JK!

[Irish]

Lixy---One of my CLOSEST friends,in Conn,is 1/2 black &1/2
Portugese(sp?)& he agrees totally with me.I was 60,last week &
he is older than I.I worked & commuted,with him,when we worked at Sikorsky Aircraft.He has had alot of experience,with
racism(segregation)He even spent a Saturday,helping me load my
U-Haul,when I moved to NH.If you want his name,just ask me & I
will PM it to you.I have dealt,with just about every race,in different
jobs & businesses over the years.In any race or lifestyle,you have
your good people & you have your assholes.That's part of life.
Irish
P.S.I can't believe that this whole thing started from an e-mail!

[jseal]

LixyChick,

Way cool! I hope to provide you with all the soapboxes you’ll ever need!

I’m with you on the whiny “no whites allowed - no fair!” cover for bigots. In this period of politically correct speech, organizations with exclusive names sound somewhat insensitive, but I guess they’ll have to take that rap.

I have to say that I think you are on shakier ground in re language. Be it laudable or no, language marks us in the eyes of others. Norwegians speak Norwegian, Greeks are taught their Greek. What would you expect to be the language of choice for a lady from Spain? Germans refer to their fatherland as Deutschland, and in it the natives speak Deutsch. Hell, here in the States, we have a grand time poking fun at how people from distant corners of our nation sound: Texans with their “erl” wells, and New Englanders with not an “r” to be found. Remember when Jimmy Carter was elected? I know a lot of people had a good old time with how he enunciated. Few things mark us more clearly than how we say what we say. Verbalizations are one of the attributes which bind us with our communities.

I suspect that most immigrants who do become citizens learn English because they want to get ahead in their new home. In America, English is the language of success. I am very suspicious indeed of those programs which try to wrap a protective cocoon around people. If two similarly qualified people apply for the same job, the one who is articulate in the operating language is rather more likely to get the position.

Language is very slippery, and ignorance of, or even a significant deficiency in the lingua franca of one’s community can place an individual at a distinct disadvantage. Does that make those in the surrounding environment racist? I am unconvinced.

[blathe]

Every racist I know (and, unfortunately, I know a lot) has used that (above) statement in some context or another (maybe to a lesser degree because they were too ignorant to think it through, as this author did, and come up with names for their fictitious "superior" white groups)......to justify why they feel they aren't "the ones" who are racist

This is just as offensive IMHO as anything in that original post. I am not a racist, far from it. Nobody who knows me would ever accuse me of racism certainly.... but that doesn't mean I don't agree with that bit.

I don't think being a minority makes you a victim of anything except numbers. The only things I can think of that are truly discriminatory are things like the United Negro College Fund, Jet Magazine, Black Entertainment Television, and Miss Black America. Try to have things like the United Caucasian College Fund, Cloud Magazine, White Entertainment Television, or Miss White America; and see what happens. Jesse Jackson will be knocking down your door.

What is so wrong with this statement? How is it racist? Racism is not acknowlidging that somebody is black. Sexism is not acknowledging that men and women are fundamentally different. Hatred or discrimination based on those realization IS and that is absolutely wrong... but one of the biggest sources or racism in our society today and the thing that is holding us back from stamping it out is things like "miss black USA" and the other racially segrigated "groups" as named here.

Reverse racism is rampant in our society today and I think it's MORE prevelant than traditional racism. I'm not saying there aren't pleanty of racists out there and it's entirely possible that they are using statements like these to defend their position but they are a dying breed. The majority of white people, and honestly all the whilte people I'm around have no problem being with, talking to, spending time with, befriending, helping, or relating to black people. Compared to the MLK era in the 60's where racism was the norm we've come a long way. But when a white man loses a job because his employer is forced to hire a black man regardless of his qualifications because of quotas (it happens), it's going to be difficult for that white man not to have bitter feelings... things like that only promote racism, rather than helping to fix it.

leave it to me.. i have a total of two posts on these boards and i'm already delving into controversy ;-)

-blathe

[jseal]

Blathe,

There is nothing wrong with controversy. At issue is if the controversial subject can be discussed without rancor or incivility. This is an adult site, this is a General Chat forum. We will all benefit if we all behave with sufficient restraint.

Many people, I among them, consider “reverse racism” to be redundant, as “Rio Grand river”. I’m sure we agree that racism of either stripe is a serious problem.

I think the numbers don’t support the notion that reverse racism is more prevalent than the traditional type. I believe that the largest racial group in the U.S. is Caucasian. Now if this is true - and I believe that it is, then I am drawn to the conclusion that the only way that reverse racism (one directed towards Caucasians) could be more prevalent than the traditional type (one directed towards Negros) would be if all members of all other racial groups were prejudiced against Caucasians.

Now this assumes a high prevalence of traditional racism among Caucasians. It would be interesting to run the numbers to see where the break points occur. If the average Caucasian was not a racist, then the ratio of non-Caucasian racists to non-racists could be lower. But why would one expect a different ratio of racist to non-racist between races? To do so is to accept that some races are more racist than others – which is itself a racist position.

Now if one assumes that there is roughly the same prevalence of racism across racial groups, the largest racial group inevitably contains the largest number of racists. Alas, the customary target of white racial prejudice in the U.S. were the blacks.

[WildIrish]

Can't we all just get along.......
















naked? :D

[blathe]

obviously I have no actual data to back it up, but by more prevelent I mean %-wise. Of course there are a lot more caucasions in the US, thus the term "minority" for other racial groups. I'm only judging by what I see, not some hard data.

And I also agree that "reverse racism" is somewhat redundant.. but I don't know how else to refer to the type of racism that says "we were were repressed for X years so you should pay for it now"....

Essentially my point is that anything that is segregating the races is at fault... whether they be black or white. In our society today it is generally accepted to allow anything for blacks only or for hispanics only or whatever but if you so much as suggest something for whites only you are instantly branded a racist. It gets even uglier when we start trying to force segragation with things such as hiring quotas... companies are forced to hire X% of minority employees in order for anybody to consider them an equal opportunity employer which can lead to situations where qualified people aren't considered because they aren't a minority. All of these kinds of things are racism and they propigate the problem rather than solving it.... but by pointing this out I'm likely putting myself in a position to be labeled a racist myself. And this was what I was getting at.

Racism will never be gone until all sides view each other as equals... we can't undo what happened in the past, we can only control what we do now.

[lakritze]

These are several very good reasons why my favourite Rooney is Micky,not Andy

[jseal]

Blathe,

Indeed, there are many who agree that the imposition of quotas does imply that an individual’s merit may be insufficient for success. Justice Thomas has spoken many times about what he sees as the lingering implication that he and other people only were successful not because they had the necessary talent and drive to succeed, but because they were afforded special treatment by the Federal government.

The difficulty America is faced with is that the legacy of our nation’s racist past is the obvious inequity left between the different racial groups.

Here’s the $64,000 question. “How else to correct the situation?”

Perhaps there are no solutions to the gap – gulf – between the races here in America which will satisfy all sides, merely those that are least inequitable.

[blathe]

Personally I think only time can solve the problem.. that and continued education on the subject. We are far better off now than we were say 25 years ago and I can only hope we will be that much better again 25 years from now. I really think that most people in today's society realize that racism is wrong. Some know it's wrong but still have racist tendancies passed down from their parents and grand parents... those people will become less each generation... and hopefully those who truly believe in supremecy for one race over another will fade away in time.

[Scarecrow]

Did you realize that the male caucasian is the real minority. Add the number of African-Americans + Asians + American Indians + Hispanics and the causasian females into one group and the male caucasian is the minority.

:jedi:

[jseal]

Originally posted by WildIrish
Can't we all just get along.......

WildIrish,

I forgot where I heard or read the advice, but it was to the effect that if you are going to have a fight with your spouse, do it in the nude. The idea being, I believe, that it is difficult to remain angry when the two of you have no clothes on.

Worked well for us too! Every time I took my clothes off to argue a point with her, she started giggling.

Ever try to argue a point with a giggling woman?

[having_fun]

I too have seen this email several times, but unlike most of the people here, I agree with all the statements made in it. And just for the record I'm not a racest. Over 20 years in the military made me color blind. I personally believe that every individual should be considered on their own merits.
It always amazes me when I hear people complain about comments, such as those in the email. But they are usually very quick to contradict their statements when one of those situations effect them directly.
Wait until one of their children isn't accepted to college specifically because of a quota. Let their business go bankrupt because they can't compete with a competitor because that competitor is receiving govt subsidies because of their race. Let them explain to their children why a neighbor can afford to get their kid a new bike, and you can't simply because that next door neighbor is receiving "refugee disbursements of $2080.00 a month from the Govt." When you work at the same place for the same money as their father. As happens to Cubans, and many other immigrants in America. Or try being a police officer responding to an emergency in a neighborhood where many of the residents can't speak english. Or being a civil servant in LA and told that you can't have a cost of living raise again this year because all the state documents had to be printed in 8 different languages, and 34 new bilingual employees had to be hired at the drivers lisc offices to handle giving driving tests in foreign languages. I've seen these over and over... And it just irritates me.

[Belial]

While I don't agree with the principle of affirmative action, let's not be myopic about it. Affluent caucasians practise and benefit from it too, with nepotism and status as a member of a "good family" rife in admissions to prep. schools and colleges, followed by similar assistance up corporate ladders. I'm surprised that there seems to be little protest by less affluent caucasians regarding this.

[jseal]

Belial,

Here in the States, affirmative action uniformly (although not exclusively) means investing resources to hire, enroll or contract non-caucasians. It is a set of public policies and initiatives designed to help eliminate past and present discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.

Much of the opposition to affirmative action is framed on the grounds of so-called "reverse discrimination and unwarranted preferences”.

What gripes many is the illogic of attempting to reverse racial discrimination by employing tools which discriminate by race. It is argued that this represents institutionalized, federally mandated racism. And indeed, over the last 10 years, the federal courts have pruned the more outré implementations of these policies. Currently, less than 10 percent of the 91,000 employment discrimination cases pending before the Equal Employment Opportunities Commission are reverse discrimination cases.

http://www.eeoc.gov/stats/enforcement.html

The legacy of slavery here in the States is sad, ugly, and messy.

[Sharni]

Gotta say i agree with some of the statements made in the original post too...but again i'll just keep which ones they are to myself...

Sharni doesn't feel like defending her opinion today :)

[blathe]

with nepotism and status as a member of a "good family" rife in admissions to prep. schools and colleges, followed by similar assistance up corporate ladders. I'm surprised that there seems to be little protest by less affluent caucasians regarding this

This is true... and when I see this I'm no happier about it, but the truth is that this type of "favor" happens despite government regulations not because of them. There is no government mandate for nepitism.

[jseal]

having_fun,

Your comment about the armed forces rings true. My brother, who just made Full Bird in the Marines, says the same thing. He claims that in the Corps nothing stands in the way of “Unit Effectiveness”.

[Eros]

Originally posted by Irish
In any race or lifestyle,you have
your good people & you have your assholes.


AMEN!

[LixyChick]

quote:
I don't think being a minority makes you a victim of anything except numbers. The only things I can think of that are truly discriminatory are things like the United Negro College Fund, Jet Magazine, Black Entertainment Television, and Miss Black America. Try to have things like the United Caucasian College Fund, Cloud Magazine, White Entertainment Television, or Miss White America; and see what happens. Jesse Jackson will be knocking down your door.

Originally posted by blathe
What is so wrong with this statement? How is it racist? Racism is not acknowlidging that somebody is black. Sexism is not acknowledging that men and women are fundamentally different. Hatred or discrimination based on those realization IS and that is absolutely wrong... but one of the biggest sources or racism in our society today and the thing that is holding us back from stamping it out is things like "miss black USA" and the other racially segrigated "groups" as named here.
Well blathe.........since you asked..........

Whoever authored the statement (above your quote) and passed it off as the words of famous commentators and journalists, so as to disguise their own racist feelings, failed to note that the organizations listed above were started in the first place to protest segregation and discrimination! The aforementioned organizations were founded on the basis that already intact organizations were discriminating against American minorities on the basis of their skin color. These particular organizations were started by blacks, for blacks.....but other ethnic groups hold their own claim to personal organizations too!

1890 - National Afro-American League was founded to protest segregation

1905 - Niagra Movement was founded to enforce the protest of segregation

1909 - N.A.A.C.P was founded as an even bigger enforcement of the protest of segregation

1910 - National Urban League was founded to help blacks make the transition to urban, industrial life

1944 - United Negro College Fund was founded to give monetarily disadvantaged blacks the advantage of higher education only afforded to middle and upper class Americans

1968 - Miss Black America was founded because the only blacks that ever appeared in Miss America contests were in a chorus line and portrayed as slaves

1979 - Black Entertainment Television aired for two hours on late night TV on Friday and Saturday nights only...to give black Americans some shows to relate to. Blacks, up to this point, had been portrayed only as maids, butlers, robbers, villains etc... It has since become a billion dollar enterprise

Some organizations have been around since the beginning of the civil rights movement. Other organizations were formed well before and after the movement began. Some say the movement has ended...some say it never will. Necessity IS indeed the mother of invention......and it was deemed necessary to start these organizations BECAUSE of segregation.......NOT in order to segregate.....which was/is inferred in the statement by this unknown author and by all the people I know who have stated it in some context or another.

That is the reason I said.......

"Every racist I know (and, unfortunately, I know a lot) has used that statement in some context or another (maybe to a lesser degree because they were too ignorant to think it through, as this author did, and come up with names for their fictitious "superior" white groups)......to justify why they feel they aren't "the ones" who are racist"

......because if those racists I know would take the time to research (and not remain ignorant) the reasons for why something is the way it is.....there may be an interesting story which doesn't necessarily match the [seemingly] face value of something being one thing and actually being another!

In other words..........if it weren't for segregation in the first place, it might not have been necessary for certain groups to feel a need to enhance only their own ethnicity, when all other ways of trying to share in the American dream were thwarted by the racists of this union we call The United States of America!!!!!

To read all about it....click on...


Civil Rights Movement (http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761580647/Civil_Rights_Movement_in _the _United_States.html)

[blathe]

Oh I don't disagree with you on the reasons those groups were founded. I do disagree with their operation in todays society though. They have gone from their roots of fighting racism to promoting it (whether they are realize it or not, and whether they are willing to admit it or not if they do realize it).

Further, I don't think the person passed it off as somebody elses words to disguise racist feelings (though the person may or may not be a racist) I would say he did it to try to make people listen more... since if some Joe Schmoe says something nobody cares but if somebody famous says the same thing it makes the news.

Of course groups like the NAACP, United Negro College Fund, etc all had good intentions and were formed to try to compensate for inequities in our society. I just feel they have become something else over the years and their presence is now a source of racism rather than a defender against it.

[FallenAngel5]

I feel the need to present my $0.02 in this matter. Not with regard to the initial post, I have my own opinions on that, but on a later post. Someone, I don't remember who at this point, made the comment that they have become "color blind." Combating racism cannot be done by becoming color blind. Combating racism is done through realizing who a person truly is. A person's identity includes the color of their skin/racial background that they belong to. We need to see that yes, a person is more than the color of their skin, but that their color is a part of their person. Racism comes from using colors to separate us. We should use differences to bind us. It amuses me - again, not picking on any one person - how many people start their personal defense by saying "oh, I have a friend that's [such and such a different race]". Yes, I think that we all do. So congratulations. You saw past the skin for that one person. Now I think what we need to do is think about how that person became our friend. Why were they different? And apply that to everyone.

*gets off soapbox*

Amanda

[blathe]

Couldn't agree with you more :)
Racism comes from looking at our diffences and seeing them as a negative thing... and so some people try to fight that by not seeing the differences. But in truth , we should not be ignoring the differences but rather not only acknowledging them but celebrating them and using them to make us complete.

Nice post.

[WildIrish]

Originally posted by jseal
WildIrish,

I forgot where I heard or read the advice, but it was to the effect that if you are going to have a fight with your spouse, do it in the nude. The idea being, I believe, that it is difficult to remain angry when the two of you have no clothes on.

Worked well for us too! Every time I took my clothes off to argue a point with her, she started giggling.

Ever try to argue a point with a giggling woman?


I'm not arguing with anyone naked! She'd be quick to take advantage of my grammatical errors. Especially the dangling participles!