9/11 conspiracy theory

[silentsoul]

Ok, first off let me say that I do simpathize with the thousands of people affected by this horrible act. Having said that, I ask you to keep an open mind about the rest of what I'm gonna say.

Basically, I feel that in one way or another, the gov't was behind the attack for one or more reasons.

First off, channeling a nation's hate toward a very easily stereotyped person, Osama, would allow the general public to accept greater losses in the search for this person.

For years and years, the military has been badly understaffed. All of the newly instilled patriotism will very easily raise recruiting numbers.

This is the thing that really erks me. Since 9/11, this new "homeland security" shit has allowed the gov't to infringe on privacies that would have otherwise been protected.

I don't really want to put myself outthere too much by ranting and raving without getting a feeling for everyone elses opinion. I will admit that I'm not perfectly happy with the current gov't. I am NOT however, one of those psychos that would create some militia to attack the gov't.

I like to think of things in a way that's not normally viewed by the general public. I've always been really good at "taking myself out of the box." I also really like to push boundaries. One time, a few years ago, me and the wifey split up for a little bit. During this time, I was desperately trying to get a hot little virgin into bed. This was extremely hard seeing as how half the time that we were "together" she was in florida. Looking to the left, you'll see that I'm in virgina.

Now I got a big dick but I don't think it's big enough to cover the 5-7 states between us. So I was sweet talking her through emails. Basically telling her in the extremely explicit way that only I can what I wanted to do with that sweet virgin cunny. Now any of you who have read my stories, know how explicit I can be. One time, while we were talking I ended up joking around by saying the following sentence EXACTLY "I wonder if saying "bomb" and "President" in the same sentence sends up some red flag in gov't computers?"

Now at the time, I was 18. The problem is, she was 15, aka jailbait. Somehow, her mom ended up getting ahold of the letters. The next thing that I know, I'm sitting on my front porch talking with some cop. My mom was there as well and she always backed me up 100% on anything I do. She backed be up this time too. The reason I needed to be backed up is because of the whole president sentence and the fact that I said some weed related stuff.

Okay, I just realized how off topic I am. But anyway, in short I think the whole thing was orcistrated bullshit. Let me know your opinion.

[Tess]

Hakim's Razor states that the simplest explanation is the most likely explanation. While you are entitled to your opinion, it is one of the least likely explanations for that disaster.

I'm just sorry that you have such a bad perception of the U.S. government to suggest or believe that they butchered 3,000 innocent people for political gain.

[LixyChick]

I can't say that I opened my mind to this theory of yours silentsoul.......because I can't fathom the mindset of our sophisticated/civilized government being so hard up for acceptance that they'd even consider this act on 9/11 as a means to an end.

Your scenario suggests that there is not one single person holding a political office who has a heart, a soul and a conscience! In my opinion.....it's preposterous to believe that "we the people" have elected so many monstrous beings and we are totally oblivious to their "secret" actions and ambitions!

Sorry ss! I say you are WAY off base in your theory!

My 2 cents!

[silentsoul]

well to say that I'm paranoid would be an insult to paranoid people so I'm not surprised by the response. I'm the type that believe that there's a secret group of people that the president has no idea exists.

In my paranoid and delusionary opinion, I just don't see how something like this could have been done without some sort of help by someone else. There are too many things that just don't add up.

There are also things that make me question events such as the jfk assasination, the moon landing, and so many other events that just don't make sense. Since everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I have decided to take these questions and add my own opinion.

Basically, I haven't heard any talk whatsoever that questions these events and wanted to speak up and ask if anyone felt the same or even similar.

Again, this is just my opinion, as you most definitly have your own.

Anyways, thank you again for all responses and please keep them coming, even if it's to call me nuts.

[jseal]

silentsoul,

Tess has pointed out the principle that one should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything.

Another way of saying this is that one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed.

It is, of course, possible that the events of 9/11 were a Machiavellian plot on the part of the Bush administration. It requires rather more effort on my part to make your theory work than it does to believe it was executed (however ineptly) by an organization that has professed a goal of overthrowing Western Civilization.

If you want to persuade people that your thesis is correct, you’ll need to come up with rather more than convenient coincidences and innuendo.

[denny]

I must be soft headed but I cannot attribute that much evil to our political leaders. Watergate kinda stuff - sure, but the risk is so high and so many would have to be in the loop! I can't give credence to your theory.

[Sharni]

Well now...i'm not American but i'm an Ally of the US

And as such am somewhat horrified that someone would truely think that the US government had orchestrated that disgusting act!!

What things dont add up exactly? Put them here so that we maybe able to help reason them out

[silentsoul]

Ok, how about the fact that is was the two towers that was hit in the first place. All in all, they were just buildings in the middle of a lot of other buildings. Osama straight up hates america and what it stands for. What's the next thing you think of after I say "american icon" and "new york." Yes, that's right, the statue of liberty.

True, what happened then was horrible, but how horrible would it have been if those two planes ended up bringing down the statue of liberty. A seriously important, irreplacable icon of american freedom. Not to mention that it would've been much easier to direct the plane into the target. Also, imagine the finacial loss that the american gov't would go through if they lost the #1 NY tourism spot.



Plus, they're all making osama out to be this insanely militant and stategic guy that is trying to fight a war in the name of god. If he was all of these things, the twin towers would have been the last place he would've attacked. Obviously, I feelt the statue would have been one essential target. The other would have without a doubt been the golden gate bridge. Osama wants to spread fear, hit on both coasts, take out the two biggest US toruism spots, hurt the us economy? If the statue of liberty and the golden gate bridge would have been destroyed, the US would have been in complete shambles. The golden gate bridge is as important historically as it is to dick and jane riding across the bridge to go to work. Rebuilding the bridge would have been a neccisity, costing billions and taking months if not years to develop and build.

Oh, and then there's the attack on the pentagon. What the hell was that all about? The pentagon has no real meaning whatso ever except in the eyes of the US public who see it as a big part of the military. Nothing, lost in the attack, even if the pentagon would have burned to the ground, would've taken more than a day to replace except for the finacial loss.



I'm sorry, I'm just now remembering that not everyone thinks as tactically as I do.

[Lilith]

The twin towers and New York represent the financial district of this country. That is why the towers. The Pentagon does have millitary functions and many of our highest ranking officials and planners spend time there. The Pentagon like the twin towers is an visible/ accessible/news worthy architectural symbol of what countries perceive as American strength or to others bullying, $$ and millitary force.

[silentsoul]

true, the twin towers represent money but that's it.

as far as the pentagon, true, a lot of high ranking officers fill the pentagon everyday. However, those officers are nameless to the general public and have no political value.

The pentagon is a fairly short building when compared to the towers and a bridge. Therefore, the pilot would have to angle the plane downwards making it more difficult than simply lowering alititude.

[Lilith]

Terrorists want attention, to have their views heard or validated, to cause a spectacle. The pentagon is a millitary institution with no "base" to protect it. And $$ is what gets people's / the media's attention.

I appreciate that you have developed this idea about the situation and I do value not taking everything you are told at face value but I think the idea is less important than your mindset which you have clearly inferred lends to imaginitive concepts. Maybe you should journal or begin writing a story based around this idea.

[jseal]

Silentsoul,

Keep in mind that what you or I may think of as an American icon may not be what an Arab Muslim may think of as an American icon.

The attack on the WTC towers was not the first time they had been targeted. Six people were killed and more than a thousand injured when a van exploded in the parking garage beneath the World Trade Center in 1993. Americans were then faced with the task of trying to pronounce and remember Arabic names like Mahmud Abouhalima, Ramzi Yousef, Nidal Ayyad, and Amad Mohammad Ajaj. It was comic.

http://cns.miis.edu/pubs/reports/wtc93.htm

Additional bombings would occur with the US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, a Hard Rock Cafe in South Africa, and others.

As I recall, back in the early 1940s another militant group opened a rather large can of whup-ass on the U.S. (“day of infamy” and all that), and followed it up with some additional attacks on U.S. interests in the Philippines. America seemed to pull through that, although it did take 3 years or so.

While a one-two punch on the Statue of Liberty and the Golden Gate Bridge may indeed have made a complete shambles of the U.S., I think many of the residents of Marin County would have found some way of coping. Granted, the property values may have declined, what with the loss of tourists to Muir Woods, but hey, that’s what insurance is for, no?

Oh yes, in re the top two U.S. tourist spots: actually, Los Angeles is the #2 destination. San Francisco is #5

http://tinet.ita.doc.gov/view/f-2000-45-561/index.html?ti_cart_cookie=20040225.234204.15738

[Lilith]

I knew Disney had to be in top 5 :p No real Floridian will touch the area during the tourist season:p

[silentsoul]

Originally posted by jseal
Silentsoul,

Keep in mind that what you or I may think of as an American icon may not be what an Arab Muslim may think of as an American icon.

The attack on the WTC towers was not the first time they had been targeted. Six people were killed and more than a thousand injured when a van exploded in the parking garage beneath the World Trade Center in 1993. Americans were then faced with the task of trying to pronounce and remember Arabic names like Mahmud Abouhalima, Ramzi Yousef, Nidal Ayyad, and Amad Mohammad Ajaj. It was comic.

http://cns.miis.edu/pubs/reports/wtc93.htm

Additional bombings would occur with the US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, a Hard Rock Cafe in South Africa, and others.

As I recall, back in the early 1940s another militant group opened a rather large can of whup-ass on the U.S. (“day of infamy” and all that), and followed it up with some additional attacks on U.S. interests in the Philippines. America seemed to pull through that, although it did take 3 years or so.

While a one-two punch on the Statue of Liberty and the Golden Gate Bridge may indeed have made a complete shambles of the U.S., I think many of the residents of Marin County would have found some way of coping. Granted, the property values may have declined, what with the loss of tourists to Muir Woods, but hey, that’s what insurance is for, no?

Oh yes, in re the top two U.S. tourist spots: actually, Los Angeles is the #2 destination. San Francisco is #5

http://tinet.ita.doc.gov/view/f-2000-45-561/index.html?ti_cart_cookie=20040225.234204.15738

First, when I said top two tourist spots, I was speaking more in the sense of actual addresses and shit instead of county's and regions.

Second, I have never been to san francisco so I obviously don't know the roads around there. However, the bridge is 2-3 lanes wide in each direction handling tens of thousands of vehicles every day. By simple numbers, having to relocate all of those vehicles would mean a nearly constant traffic jam.

Third, the previous attack on the WTC in this sense of the word doesn't really matter. When someone parks a van in a basement filled with explosives, the best they can hope for is a total colapse of the entire building. In that type of attack the size of the building is directly related to the number of casulties. Flying a passenger jet into building requires a bit more planning.

I'm not exactly sure of the altitude that the planes were at but it takes quite a while for a person to gain their bearings, even in a familiar place when looking at it from above. True, the twin towers are fairly distinctive but in the middle of a city.

I'm not saying that the twin towers weren't a good target, just that the statue would have been a better one. I'm also saying that the statue would have been deemed too great a loss by that whole shadowy super evil group or whatever. Hence, because the statue was too great a loss and possibly because of the previous attacks, they chose to attack the towers.



Oh, and lil, writing a whole the U.S becomes a third world country overnight because of all this is a good idea. I think I might try it.

[Catch22]

silentsoul, These people are left overs from the cold war. That guy was in the pay of the US during the Afgan/Russ war of the early 80's. Once the cold war ended these people lost their meal tickets. That tends to make them pissed at their old employers. I don't think even they expected the towers to come down the way they did. The FBI did know something was going to happen and it was going to be planes, but not when and where. As for the 15 year old. Anyone who has been on the net for awhile knows not to talk dirty to someone saying they are 15. Teenagers never say they are 15. They are 21. If someone says they are 15 and wants to cyber. They are a cop.

[Catch22]

If the Govt were going to stage something to get the public to rally behind a cause. Then the Statue of Liberty would have made a safer target. At 8AM there is nobody around to be killed and it is a symbol to which all would react. Plus it would be less expensive to rebuild then the towers.

[LixyChick]

Does anyone remember the plane that was hijacked by the terrorists, but crashed in Pa. before it got to it's target? It was speculated that it could have been headed to The Statue of Liberty or The White House. The people aboard were thought to have brought that plane down themselves........but there was also rumor of an F-16 in the vicinity and some had claimed it was shot down by land forces.

Of all the landmarks mentioned.....forgotten here is the cradle of liberty.....Philadelphia, Pa.

I'm inclined to think as jseal suggested.......that what terrorists might think of in their warped minds, as a place to attack and send us "the perfect message".....might not be the same as what we would say if we were asked to name the "heart" of our nation!

I for one, wouldn't name any particular tourist site as our "heart"....but instead I would say that the heart lies within each citizen and his/her contribution to making this such a great nation! How could a terrorist "strike" that? As I, and many others, have said before......it was sad to see the towers fall......but what truly hurt was to know of all the people who perished in the buildings and on the planes......and of all the families of those people who were left to carry on without them. In my opinion.......that's the point here. And the terrorists missed it and so have you ss!


*stands for The National Anthem*

[Sharni]

*stands too*

There were multiple nationalities that lost their precious lives

[LixyChick]

That's true Sharni! This wasn't a message to Americans! This was a warped message to the world!!!!

[FussyPucker]

conspiracy theories - All a matter of how you present your "evidence", pick out the bits you think support you case and show them in such a way that you're making people believe that is the way it should be interpreted.

I've read through information on the moonlanding "hoax", the 9/11 theory and even the Prince Charles is the devil and a Muslim theory.

having a theory and then making the "facts" fit your theory is not good!

[Oldfart]

If anyone can explain to me how the US Government can talk

a heap of foreigners into flying planes into US buildings,

then maybe I'll give it credence.

America, and to a lesser degree the whole Western World was

responsible for 9/11 because we exist, and stubbornly refuse to

move aside to make way for the New Islamic Fundamentalist Order.

There is a lot of water to go under the bridge before this is over.

While I don't doubt that the US Government and it's agencies does

things to protect and preserve the quarter billion people under their

care and that many may be unpalatable to the general populace,

This does not have the right "taste" to fit the bill.

[silentsoul]

catch 22 - first, the 15 year old was someone from my school that just happened to go on vacation at the time.

lixy - all of these landmarks that I speak of are simply one of the top places that the american public would think of. As for the thousands of people that lost their lives, I'm sorry for how their lives will be changed forever. However, in a militant sense of the word, they are but casulties of war.



Obviously, you all are not understanding my main point. The people, whoever they are, that was in charge of setting up those attacks, can't be named. I'm not saying that bush himself set all this up, nearly the opposite. Whoever those poeple are not looking at the immediate losses and gains.

Look at it this way.

Money - hundreds of thousands of dollars were donated after the attack

privacy - since the attack, privacy has gone to shit.

american patriotism - It's never been higher, more people are joining the military, all those damn flags, we're totally in love with ourselves.

Security - omg what a joke, I'm not even going to begin to start on that one.





I'll end by saying this. It's obvious that no one is getting the point that I'm trying to make. I'll admit, that's a good thing, means there's some sanity left in the world. Anyway, this has all been a simple experiment of open mindness. All in all I simply wanted to put some questions in peoples mind. I'm gonna leave it at that.

[FussyPucker]

So, in a nutshell, are you saying there's a small (possibly large) group of people that REALLY control the course of things in the US? This isn't in fact the government but there maybe elements of the group within the government........

Have you ever heard of David Icke?

[Catch22]

Islamic has nothing really to do with any of it. Most of the cold war was in Islamic araes. When the cold war ended these people were left high and dry by both the former USSR and the US. These guys need a world watching its back so they can get a living. There is no cause as such, that they are following. It is interesting that Iraq is now more Islamic then it was a year ago. You can say the 'Men in Black' are behind anything. It may or may not be so. I think one would go mad worrying about it. I have been to the spot were JFK was killed. There is a lot about that being a Men in Black thing. One could even say things about WW2. Why were the Fleet Carriers at sea the Day the Japs bombed Pearl? The world is not a James Bond movie. Be happy your alive to chat up school girls and not in some 3rd world place fighting for life every day of the week.

[lakritze]

Thank you SS for approaching a subject that many have felt but dared not speak of over the last couple of years. It is not unAmerican to realize there is a mean spirit in this land.This news is beginning to break and serious questions are beginning to be asked.I had always felt that Osama was nothing more than a CIA flunkey that would do anything that they would tell him to do.After all,thats how he started out.We have been told nothing but lies from this Administration.Have you ever read anything about W's grandpa Prescott Bush and his NAZI ties?

[jseal]

silentsoul,

I think Lilith made a good point. You may notice that you are having a bit of difficulty advancing your theory as popular history. So be it. Represent it as a short story. In doing so, your readers are apt to take a rather less skeptical view of what you have to say.

[uwish6969]

Originally posted by silentsoul
Ok, how about the fact that is was the two towers that was hit in the first place. All in all, they were just buildings in the middle of a lot of other buildings.
True, what happened then was horrible, but how horrible would it have been if those two planes ended up bringing down the statue of liberty.

[/B][/QUOTE] Osama wants to spread fear,
Oh, and then there's the attack on the pentagon. What the hell was that all about? The pentagon has no real meaning whatso ever except in the eyes of the US public who see it as a big part of the military. Nothing, lost in the attack, even if the pentagon would have burned to the ground, would've taken more than a day to replace except for the finacial loss. [/B][/QUOTE]


I would like to lend my opinion to the thread.
Silent Soul, I think what was intended was this. Strike America at the heart of what makes it tick every day. The financial district in New York. With confusion and chaos created by not only destroying a nation landmark, but by the senseless massacre of innocent civilians. There were multiple planes that all had separate targets and collectively they were intended to make us as a nation fearful inour own backyard. If our stock market and large banks could not operate for days or even weeks, what kind of pandemonium would that cause? If our military's HQ (Pentagon) was in shambles, how would we react? If the White House was destroyed (Lixy is right about the PA plane), what would we do? Collectively these things were intended to instill fear in the people of the United States and all over the world. We are a Superpower of a nation. Whether or not anyone agrees with how our country is run, that's a fact. On top of all these motives for doing this (by Osama bin Laden) there is a fundemental reason why they would do this.
Christianity.
They feel that they are being oppressed by the Christians in this world and our President is a God Loving ad Fearing man as are quite a number of his cabinet. This is a direct attack on what they feel has been oppressing them for centuries. Now that we have a President that prays before meetings, looks to God for guidance in his admministration and so on, the heat has been turned up. I for one am glad that we have a President that looks for spiritual guidance in matters concerning our nation.
To even say that "they" did this is preposterous! I realize that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that just strikes a nerve with me.
Thanks for the opportunity to vent.

[LixyChick]

I resent that you think I don't understand your point ss! I don't agree with it....but I DO understand it!

I completely understand that you think that our government is so hard up and so evil that they have stooped three levels lower than the subway with terroristic attacks....and are now, somehow, hiding behind a man (Bin Laden) and his followers and letting them take all the blame......while they sit back and watch and gloat in their secret glory........all to inspire patriotism and to get into our heads and pockets......and that somehow not one single soul in the political arena has noticed this behavior and identified it as abhorrent....because everyone who holds a political office is in on the secret and is now reaping the benefits of this conspiracy!

Is that about it in a nutshell?

[Tess]

*Where is Uncle Silky when we need him most?*

[silentsoul]

I've had this target for a while and figured now would be a good time to use it.

[Sharni]

And your point is??

[uwish6969]

I think the point is to deflect the negative attention from him to a more deserving person. Heh silentsoul?

[silentsoul]

no, I simply had the target lying around. I decided to go shooting today. I decided to post it, no point or anything.

[Grumble]

Silentsoul,

I am cynical about your poltical leaders and Australias.

I just cannot have a bar of your theory on this.

Bush may be a bit of a nut but I think he is an american who wants his country to be safe.

[GingerV]

There's a latin phrase, "cui bono?" or literally "who benefits?" that is probably one of the most mis-used concepts in the legal profession.

The idea is that you find the person who benefitted most from a crime....and that person, straight off, must be your primary suspect.

The problem with it tends to be that people benefit from things in very different ways. Moreover, what one person percieves as a small benefit may actually have been a very LARGE benefit to someone else. It leads both to incorrect suspicion of people who turn out to be innocent and a presumption of innocence for others who turn out to be guilty.

The REASON it's a poor standard to apply (either legally or to the rest of the world) is that it leads to ciruclar reasoning. The outcome was X, therefore Y must have been behind it. What evidence exists to prove Y did it? Ah, there is some, so the argument is proved. There's no place in that sort of reasoning structure for weighing positive against negative evidence....and letting that tell you, in the end, who must have done it. The conclusion drives the investigation.

It's also an argument structure that's seen a lot in conspiracy theories. It rarely leads to truth, and frequently to what scientists call "data dredging"....picking through the evidence for the few little bits that support your argument, while ignoring the 800 things that you dismissed along the way. It's not necessarily a wrong answer...but it's a very very weak one.

While I happen to agree that Bush and Co. were disgustingly opportunistic in the aftermath of 9/11 (a discussion for another time and place...if at all)....the fact that they benefitted politically or economically (if they did) is not actually evidence of their guilt. What didn't happen is only rarely evidence, and it's always the very weakest sort. Here, there are so many ways to retell the story....it's just not helpful if you're curious about what really happened.

I'm not saying all this to tell you you're wrong, SS. It's just that because you mentioned that your perspective into the world makes you more likely to believe conspiracy theories, I thought you might be interested in another way of looking at them. Maybe if you recognize the weaker forms of argument usually used to put these things forward....it might help you form stronger ones, even if it doesn't change your opinion.

[silentsoul]

Ok, what if someone so powerful, they could cover something up, even as big as this, to the point of the only evidence that remains is simply circumstantial yet surrounded by an overwhelming number of obvious facts.

What I'm saying is tactically, the best crime is a crime that no one would ever even think of as a crime. You know the whole "the best crime the devil ever commited was making the world think he didn't exist" thing.

I'm just presenting this as no more than a possibility. I'm not saying this is was happened, I'm not saying it's not, that's why it's called a conspiracy theory. Please don't think I'm nuts (even though I am, but that's beside the point) because I'm presenting a possibility.