Arrogance: The War

[Gilly]

Over the last year and a half, people have experianced a high array of emotions, from fear, to shock, to anger, and more. Many people said, there won't be a war. I was one of them.

After conceeding that fact, many people said that even if there was a war, it wouldn't be long and drawn out, and it wouldn't hurt us. After all, we are America, home of the brave. I was one of them.

The war is happening, whether we want it or not, and I've noticed several types of people.

One group is all but loading their own personal ammo, ready to take on the world.

One group is scared and hiding in a basement with gallons of water, and duct tape.

One group is torn, do we fight, or play dead?

One group is arrogant: They don't think anything bad will happen, because we are America, home of the brave. I am no longer a part of this group.

There are more groups interwoven in this right now, but those are the majority.


Tonight, I went to the movies with my daughter, and missed Bush's speech. After the movie, we stopped at the dollar store, and browsed for a bit. The radio station they were listening to had songs playing that reminded me of 7th grade. The announcer wasn't saying anything in between, but it is my understanding now, that Bush had already addressed the nation.

The songs playing were the same ones my middle school played over the PA system on the day after Desert Storm was announced.

I've known for quite some time that the war was inevitable. I'm against it, but I understand the need. I just feel without a doubt that at some point during all of this, we will be hit, on our own soil, and against our own people.

This won't be a war fought on distant land, facing distant opponants. It will be seen here, up close, and felt by millions.

And still, people are arrogant enough to think we can't be hurt.

[krzykrn]

I unfortunately missed this today, although I just finished talking with a friend (she was quite desolated, being a very kind hearted and empathic woman, bless her heart) and I have to agree...it was inevitable, for better or for worse. Unofortunately what can you do? There is a lot of uncertainty in the future and what the repurcussions of our actions have yet to be foretold...all we can do is live our lives, and hope and pray that this all ends soon.

It is very disheartening to say the least...many innocent people will die, and will anything actually be solved? What if we do actually route Saddam out...will the next regime be any better? Too many quesitions and too many what ifs, it is enough to boggle the mind...I realize I am rambling a bit, but right now my head is a bit unclear...just venting I guess...

[aflyerfan]

We have already been attacked on our own land. I support the United States and my president. What more has to happen on our own land before it is time to take the fight to the enemy. The destruction of the trade centers wasnt enough?
We(the U.S.A) are fighting pure evil.

[fzzy]

Some may know that I live just above the northern edge of Camp Pendleton -- usually one of the first places they pull troops from to send to the Middle East ... so I have a lot of friends where one of the adults in the family has already been shipped off to that area ... I have 2 nephews in active military service ... one just returned from the Middle East and one heading there within the next couple of months ....

I have no desire to rush headlong into conflict, but we haven't have we? I do wonder though .... who are we (as a nation) if we don't maintain the values we have espoused for the last 200+ years ... if we back away from them now because we fear retribution, then what will be the cost to our own country and the freedom we hold dear.

I believe in peace and love ... I have prayed that my heart be softened and then prayed for those who have declared themselves our enemy .... and yet with every peace loving fiber of my being I do not feel it right to sit by and let wrong prevail .... there is an old and valued quote (I paraphrase).... all it takes for evil to thrive is for good men (and women) to sit silent. Sometimes war becomes necessary to ensure peace .... that is sad, but true I think.

[celticangel]

God bless those who strive for peace and those who would lay their own lives down for others.
War sucks--------but the alternative facing the world is so much worse--------------how many more innocents will have to suffer at the hands of dictators and mad-men( throughout the world).

God bless us allxxx

[don73153]

I too don't wish for a war. Our sons and daughter's lives will be the cost we pay for it. But what kind of world is it that at any moment, anywhere, there might be a religious zealot lurking with a bomb? Are we to fear even walking outside, down the street, in our favorite store, because of that fear?

Yes, FEAR, THREAT, TERROR. People, this is insane! We MUST stop it. I believe that the best defense against this type of threat is a very aggressive offense. Go in, root em out, stab them in the neck, and watch em bleed. Put it on TV for the world to see. Even the terrorists will see that we aren't going to put up with this shit anymore!

I believe we're doing the right thing.

God bless America!!

Don

[Nice Guy]

It is really nice to come on here and listen to an intelligent conversation about what our country is facing and what we will be facing. I have spent the last several days arguing on a different forum with people who are more interested in spewing out the whole "Oh the government is corrupt, power hungry, and infringing on our rights."

I don't fully agree with war, any sane person wouldn't. However the alternative is something far worse and much more dangerous. Terror needs to be stopped now, we can't just keep trying to hide from it.

Thanks for letting me up on the soap box.

[jay_ba]

This war is one of pride: on both sides. Nobody trusts Saddam, but you need to have proof that he has, or is developing, weapons of mass destruction. The trick is to prove it. You need that proof before people start dying. The inspectors did everything they could.

I did not catch Bush's message either. They really don't show much of anything here of foreign news. The newspapers had a little bit about the message. Apparently Bush was talking about how the problems in the country are Saddams fault. Funny, it is the sanctions placed on the country that has resulted in the poverty.

I have seen *way* more than my fair share of the world. The United States should not, and cannot, expect to be the globe's peace force. How would the American public react to another nation forcing their political goals and views upon them. Hmmm. I think that, in the past, lead to war with the British.

Should Saddam have WOMD, he deserves what he gets. So far, many different experts have failed to prove it and the United States has been unable to produce anything to the contrary of the findings of the inspectors. I just hope that people are not paying for a lie with their own blood.

[Santiago]

my parents live about 10 min from Camp David and 75 miles from Washington, I live around 100 miles from Washington. My fear is that they will send nukes over here that actually strike because we do live so close to the capital. I dont think about it though. I dont want to think about it. I feel there is no reason to think(dwell) about it because there is nothing I can do about it. So if it happens, what shitty luck we have.

[horseman12]

I just happened to catch a little bit of news tonight and heard a report that saddam threatened to use the very weapons he claimed for years not to have on anyone invading Iraq, how can he use something so many people are so sure he does'nt have? yet he comes out and tells the world yep i got'em and i'm gonna use'em!!

It is sickening!!

[jseal]

Horseman12, That's an example of why it is necessary for the world to move on without that regime. Not only does Iraq have WMDs, but they have used them in the past against Iranian military in the 1980-1988 war, and also against Iraqi civilians in 1988.

[horseman12]

that is my sentiments also, he needs to be out of power regardless, his free will, or by force

[horseman12]

but the really sad part is hundreds if not more cilvillians will die because of saddam, he knows what is gonna be targeted and he WILL put innocent people at those places to be slaughtered because he has no conciousness of humanity, he is one SICK *&$##^

[Steph]

Originally posted by aflyerfan
We have already been attacked on our own land. I support the United States and my president. What more has to happen on our own land before it is time to take the fight to the enemy. The destruction of the trade centers wasnt enough?
We(the U.S.A) are fighting pure evil.

The Iraqis weren't behind the WTC attacks. There were no Iraqis on board those planes.

[Scarecrow]

Your are right Steph but, yes there is a but, some of the money to train the 9/11 terrorist came from and through Iraq, there are terrorist training camps in Iraq. And Saddaim Hussain is paying PLO human bomber families money for their "loss".

[wench]

War is a horrible thing. An even more horrible thing is to not fight to defend yourself or others. To let someone similar to Hitler have power again. Shouldn't we have learned something from that? Aren't we supposed to learn from history? That's the point of studying it in the first place, to me anyway.

I'm not for war. Never have been, never will be. There comes a time when you have to stand up to bullies though. That's what is going on here. In my opinion anyway.

[jseal]

wench, Many, many people share your opnion.

[Nobody Special]

Wench.... I'm sorry to say this but Look back at history.... if you look hard enouph you will find that History repeats its self over and over again..

Yes Look at Hitler.. then look at Napolean.. then look at Caesar...

all wanting to take over the world... all being called the Anti Christ and now Saddom is also being called the Anti Christ and there are many many more.. another is Lennon and Stallin and so on... but these were also Great people in History too... they did Great things many of wich alot of people dissagreed with but still great things....

And yes War is a horrible thing.. Look at WWII... Women started working and taking Jobs from men, cause they were needed to work and help with the war effort and then the government came in and raised taxes and everything else to make it so that today Both men and women need to work just pay the monthly bills..

I"m not trying to be sexist, tho it may sound like I am... but look at what war has done for our economy.... in WWII it had brought us out of debt by creating more jobs for every one...

Yes the Death is a horrible thought.. I have friends and Family over there on the front lines and I don't like it but I also don't like it when Friends and family are killed for the simple reason of making the point that the US is not INVINCABLE.... and so on.....

and Wench.. I'm sorry if I sound like I"m talking directly to you and sounding like I'm angry about somthing you had said,, Because I'm not.. and it isn't my intention to make it osund that way I just don't know a different way to say it right now.. please for give me.....*On hands and Kneese pleading, Kissing Wenches feet in between words*

;)E

[Gilly]

My only hope is that the blood we pay out for this war is worth what we get in return.

[BlueSwede]

I totally agree with you, Gilly and Jay_ba. War may have been inevitable, but I think Bush went about it the wrong way and too soon. I don't think he cared what the other countries of the world or the UN had to say. He had his mind made up from the get go. I think our government is arrogant as hell. Can you imagine if the leader of another country said, "OK, Bush, you and your family have 48 hours to leave the United States or we attack." One of my nephews and one of my sons, who turns 20 on 3/25, are over there. Another of my sons may be joining them shortly. Like you said, Gilly, "My only hope is that the blood we pay out for this war is worth what we get in return."

[wench]

I think we're all hoping it turns out to be worth it.

(I'm not mad at you NS. :) Cute tactic though.)

[BlueSwede]

Here's a good article about our role in this mess.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/878833.asp#BODY

[jseal]

BlueSwede,

I believe this particular mess started 24 years ago, with the ascension of Saddam Hussein to power. This mess is just about over.

With good will, good judgment, and good luck, what will follow will be better for all.

[skipthisone]

Ahhh...good ole MSNBC and Newsweek now that is unbiased news.

[jseal]

Skipthisone,

Now be nice. MSNBC is much better than anything available in Baghdad.

[Scarecrow]

Hey Skip you can have your choice MSNBC or Fox News, Both very strait(~) reporting. LOL

[jseal]

Originally posted by BlueSwede
... Can you imagine if the leader of another country said, "OK, Bush, you and your family have 48 hours to leave the United States or we attack."

BlueSwede,

Actually, GWB is following in the footsteps of a Good Old Democrat, WJ Clinton! In 1994 the government of Haiti, under President Jonassaint was told to leave office.

"After receiving permission from President Clinton, Jimmy Carter, General Colin Powell, and Senator Sam Nunn (D-Ga.) flew to Haiti for negotiations on September 17, just thirty-six hours prior to the scheduled launch of the invasion forces..."
Clinton and Coercive Diplomacy: A Study of Haiti, Sarah Bermeo, Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs, Princeton University, January 18, 2001
The agreement was signed on September 17. "The day after the agreement was signed American troops came ashore in Haiti under the command of Lieutenant General Hugh Shelton to help train police and rebuild the Haitian nation. A few weeks later leaders of the Cedras government left the country and Aristide returned on October 15, 1994, as agreed to in Carter-brokered agreement. " Ibid

Do you recall anyone protesting about the arrogance of President Clinton then? Although I try to keep up with foreign affairs, I sure don't.

[jseal]

Oops, I forgot the url

http://www.wws.princeton.edu/~cases/papers/coercivedipl.html

[Irish]

~NEWS FLASH~
My wife has Fox News on!At the bottom of the picture,there is a
scroll.It said that thousands of anti-war protesters had gathered
in front of the US embassy in Paris.(suprise,suprise,Paris,FRANCE)
They had also destroyed a McDonalds resturant in Paris.I didn't
want it to have to come to this,but Ronald McDonald is going to
have to turn in his clown suit,for fatigues!The only problem is that
when I was in,they called those,ankle high(workboot like)black,
laceup,boots,Brogans(sp?)I'm not sure that they make a size,big-
enough,for Ronald.He might have to dye those red things black!
Irish

[LixyChick]

Now try and remember..............I DIDN'T WRITE THIS! It just seemed like something worthwhile to pass along!

*ducks down low.......and hopes for the best as I am getting tired of being "American" bashed!*




London Daily Mirror

No matter what your views on President Bush's statement of upcoming war, this, from an English journalist, is very interesting. Just a word of background for those of you who aren't familiar with the UK's Daily Mirror. This is a notoriously left-wing daily that is normally not supportive of the Colonials across the Atlantic.

Tony Parsons ... Daily Mirror ... September 11, 2002

One year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting -- the mass murder of thousands, live on television. As a lesson in the pitiless cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol Pot's Mountain of Skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage in the Nazi concentration camps. An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that surely the world could agree on one thing - nobody deserves this fate.

Surely there could be consensus: The victims were truly innocent, the perpetrators truly evil. But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as America's comeuppance.

Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last year. There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country; too loud, too rich, too full of themselves, and so much happier than Europeans -- but it has become an epidemic. And it seems incredible to me. More than that, it turns my stomach.

America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are bonded to the US by culture, language and blood. A little over half a century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon? And exactly a year ago, thousands of ordinary men, women and children -- not just Americans, but from dozens of countries -- were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics. Are we so quick to betray them?

What touched the heart about those who died in the Twin Towers and on the planes, was that we recognized them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody's son and somebody's daughter, husbands, wives, and children, some unborn.

And these people brought it on themselves? Their nation is to blame for their meticulously planned slaughter? These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan.

The anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering from power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes without having to ask permission.

The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since September
11.

Remember... remember... remember... the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to say, "I love you," before they were burned alive.

Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning skyscrapers.

Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive.

Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of the planes with her mum.

Remember... remember... And realize that America has never retaliated for
9/11 in anything like the way it could have. So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked up without a trial in Camp X-ray? Pass the Kleenex. So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired their semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but maybe next time they should stick to confetti.

AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot. That it didn't is a sign of strength. American voices are already being raised against attacking Iraq -- that's what a democracy is for.

How many in the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination? When the news of
9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving Palestinians were dancing in the street.

America watched all of that -- and didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism." A real war.

The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell" if America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell like you wouldn't believe. The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of the earth. The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived. But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand -- assuming you haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.

I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle. But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh. Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be -- rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or religion, or some caste system.

America is the best friend this country ever had and we should start remembering that. Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning towers. Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper. And tell it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York Fire Department.

To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein. Once we were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save me the orange center, Oh Mighty One!

Remember... remember... September 11. One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against America. No, do more than remember. Never forget. Pass it on.

[Tess]

Good one, Lixy... Very Good!

[Scarecrow]

Thank you, Lixy

[Sharni]

Excellent Lixy

[DallasLiving]

I have been keeping my mouth shut in these discussions so far, for the most part. But I do have to say Extremely good job on finding that one, Lixy. (((((((hugs))))))))))

[TinkerBell69]

It is the people in Iraq who are still supporting Suddam I cannot understand. He is willing to sacrifice their lives, while he runs from place to place hiding.

Pardon me, but the selfish bastard!!! (sorry)

[jseal]

TinkerBell69,

Very few Iraqis SUPPORT the regime.

Those few who do are doing well (some very well) in the current environment – the last few days excepted. As for the rest, well, it is difficult to articulate one’s different point of view after one has been executed.

[rabbit]

War is a horrible thing. It means that diplomacy failed. But I must say that, during the UN deliberations as I watched Dominique de Villepin of France speak, all I could see was Neville Chamberlain holding up the Munich Agreement saying "peace in our time".

I hold a BA degree in American History. This doesn't make me an expert in anything but I did learn something about the lessons of history. From those learnings I do believe that, today, Saddam is Adolf Hitler from 1937-1938. The Allies waited too long to confront Hitler as he repeatedly and openly violated the Treaty of Versailles in building an army, navy, and weapons of mass destruction. They even APPEASED him (Czechoslovakia, 1938). Eight years later, the price the world paid for waiting was terrible.

That scar is still upon us.

I'm not for war. It is a nasty, nasty business. Innocents die. But sometimes there is no choice, especially when the world is facing a devil like Saddam. The world tried diplomacy with him for 12 years. During that time, he committed attrocities with chemical weapons, murdered his own people, defied UN resolutions, and harbored terrorists...groups like Ansar al-Islam (linked to al Qaeda) who is suspected of killing a Western journalist in a car bomb attack just a few days ago. He may have even been helping al Qaeda (not proven to my knowledge).

I pray that the Iraqi army surrenders peacefully and quickly, allowing a horrible, brutal dictatorship to be removed so that peace and justice may come to us all in the world.

rabbit

[jseal]

rabbit,

Alas, too true.

[Vigil]

Some find their souls in war and death - it is one of our demons.

I want to know what the hell Lixy is doing reading the daily mirror. Small world that we inhabit cheek by jowel.

[Irish]

I HAVE to bring up,one more thing,because it pisses me off!
Anti war protestors,have constantly complained about what
would happen to the economy&the innocent lives that it
would cost.Thousands of taxpayers dollars have been spent
to develop lazer guided accurate bombs& missles,so that only
military targets would be hit.Yesterday,ALL the news channels,
said that thousands of night-vision goggles,lazer scrambling
devices&anti-tank weapons had been sold to Iraq,by Russian
companys.Today,the public,was shown,pictures of dead Arab
people and children,in order to create anti-american sentiment.
These things were sold by a country that said that the US was
breaking,UN or NATO guidelines.Lets put the blame where it
lies.The almighty dollar rules.Isn't selling all of those things,
breaking the rules?Not counting costing lives.A lazer guided weapon can hit anything if you destroy its aiming device!Pres.
Bush complained to Putain(sp?)today.So far,the complaints have been ignored. Irish

[Vigil]

Its been known for a long time that the old Soviet arsenal has been sloshing around God knows where. Any number of ex Soviet Republics or ex Soviet Military could be involved.

I think putain is the French for whore, Irish - surely you mean Putin.

[Grumble]

I dislike war because people get killed and horribly. Women, chidren and infants get killed and maimed. It is awful.

Yet I think that Saddam cannot be trusted and that there is a good possiblity that has has some nasty weapons hidden away somewhere. Terrorism is nastier than war. You dont know who the enemy is even. Terrorists need to be wiped out without mercy.

There were the awful attacks on september 11 and perhaps not as well know but the atrocity in Bali where over 80 people killed and many more injured (mostly Australians). None of these people in the world trade centre or a nightclub in Bali were harming anyone.

Australian soldiers, airmen and sailors are there in the middle east fighting side by side with the US and Britain to ensure that Saddam is taken out of power. God bless them all.

One comment was highlighted when our Prime minister announced that Australian troops were going into active service.

A returned serviceman from WW 2 agreed that the time had come to stop flapping jaws and show strength. He remembered the lead up to WW2 and said that the situation was exactly the same.
History repeats itself and hopefully this action will prevent a greater nastier conflicy from occurring.

[Gilly]

I can't believe this thread stuck around! :o

[Oldfart]

Whether we agree with the war or not, It's here now.

We either support the kids in harm's way or just turn our

backs on them.

Easy choice.

[jseal]

Originally posted by Gilly
I can't believe this thread stuck around! :o

Gilly,

Why? It is an important subject to Americans these days.

[Irish]

My BAD!I meant to congratulate the Australians & welcome
them!I,personally think that you are doing the right thing!
People have to think,about others,not just themselves!
Unfortunately,some people only understand violence! Irish

[wench]

This war we're involved is important for everyone, those involved, and those not yet involved, those protesting it and those cheering it on....it's all being played out on the world stage. We'll have to just do our best and hope they will eventually realize the truth about it all. Not someone's skewed take on it.

Forgot to mention that I'm thankful for a place to discuss this like rational adults. :D Thanks everyone!!

[Irish]

They abused the Italians.I didn't care,I was Irish!
They abused the Polish.I didn't care,I was Irish!
They abused the Australians.I didn't care,I was Irish!
They abused the English.I didn't care,Iwas Irish!
ETC!
They abused the Irish.I looked around and everyone was gone,
except,a few Irish people!
Moral:Everyone is human & should be treated as such!(Even Iraqis.(sp?)) Irish

[jseal]

Nobody Special,

Here are the numbers by year for the US National Debt

6/28/46 269,422,099,173.26
6/30/45 258,682,187,409.93
6/30/44 201,003,387,221.13
6/30/43 136,696,090,329.90
6/30/42 72,422,445,116.22
6/30/41 48,961,443,535.71

Note what happened from December, 1941 through August, 1945. The National Debt increased about 6.6 times. Neville Chamberlain did no one any favors when he appeased Hitler.

[jseal]

Gentlefolk,

My apologies, I keep forgetting to provide my references:

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opd.htm#history

[Irish]

Check the stats!Per capita,the Amercan dead from WW1-VN,
are ABOUT the same!This conflict,is about 1 in ?000! Irish
P.S.Satistics(sp?)provided by The Blute&Ozone radio show on
RKO680.