Nix The Chix???

[Irish]

First I want to apologise for not keeping up with current events at
Pixies this week!I have been undergoing alot of tests(Stress,Anscore,etc)that all have to do with my diabetes.I'm sorry,
but it concerns my immediate family,not my pixies family.As you
know,tho you may disagree with me,I usually have most of the
facts,before I voice my opinion.I waited to see if anyone wrote
about this but am to pissed off to wait any longer!Most radio stations have talked about it this morning.I am in favor of everyone voiceing their opinion,as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.
I have never understood why so-called celebritys(movie stars,
actors,singers,etc.)opinions should be taken with anymore value
than anyone elses.It's ALL over the radio this morning that the
Dixie Chix,after giving a concert overseas,lead singer,stated that
she was not only against a war,but that they were "ASHAMED" that G.Bush was from Texas.The largest supporters of C&W are
the Armed Forces.Most Texans that I have known,act almost as if
Texas were its own country.What is your opinion of this statement?As I said,I agree that people are entitled to their own
opinion.I don't have all of the facts but from what I heard,on the
radio,everyone,Especially Texans are extremely mad.There had even been talk of boycotting anything by them. Irish

[Gilly]

Well, I'm sorta confused, what did you want an oppinion on, the Dixie Chix, or that Texans like to consider themselves a country of thier own? Sorry, that was just getting jumbled in my brain.



My oppinion on the DC is that they are just as entitled to an opinion as anyone else. I personally don't support the war, because I'm terrified of what the terrorists will being here to us, and to our children. I don't think this war will be completly off-shore.

I don't support the impending desicion of war, but I understand where it is needed. One thing about a free country, is that free will is going to come to the fore front in people's thoughts on certain matters. Just because the local grocer supports the war, doesn't mean I'm going to boycott shopping there.

I'm not an activist, however, and don't get into things like boycotting. So, would I boycott a musical group just because I don't agree with all of thier own oppinions. Hell, I can't stand the things Eminem preachs about, or states as his own oppinions, but I like his music.

[Lilith]

Texas was it's own country once.

[DragonLady]

I believe we have the right to defend our country to make it better for our children.

But I don't believe in a Hatred War because you just don't like that country so lets blow them up kinda thing..

But end the end we are only voices we don't make the decsions good ole President Bush does... Either he will screw us or help us .. Some time close to home is the bigger enemy

[Irish]

I'm sorry that I didn't make myself clear.I was asking about
if people thought that people should voice their opinions,about
their country,while in other countrys.Their opinions might be
right or wrong,but in most places they wouldn't be able to voice
their opinions.I'm trying to stay non-political on this.I also hate
war but can see the reason for stopping a tyrant, to help others!
In my opinion the old" Not in my Backyard"has to stop someplace.
Someday it could be OUR backyards! Irish

[skipthisone]

Well i think.......you know they.......that is just..........will the madness.......yep that is all I have to say.

[Gilly]

Originally posted by skipthisone
Well i think.......you know they.......that is just..........will the madness.......yep that is all I have to say.

Can I quote you on that? :p

[skipthisone]

Anytime.

[Gilly]

:D

[Eros]

Irish~ I just read about that on the website of a local country station here in Dallas. I like the Dixie Chicks' music, have never been to fond of them as people. As far as their comments about "Dubya" they better just keep their asses in Nashville. As far as their right to make the comment...sure..everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but just because you're a celebrity, don't think that your status alone makes you a spokesperson. I myself am all for the war. We're finally finishing something that George Sr started over 10 years ago. Now that N. Korea has come into the picture, I'm not sure how it will go, but I have faith in our men and women over there. Just my 2 cents.

PS...Hope you're feeling better!

[huntersgirl]

I have to say that the thing that worries me the most about celebrities in general is they DO have an opportunity to reach millions with their opinions. They along with all media represent America. And I find that very unfortunate. Sometimes (especially when I travel) I am almost embarrassed to admit that I am American. It is unbelievable how many non Americans out there have an extremely distorted view of how we are, but understandable given the press that only a certain few have. I can also understand that these celebrities want to take advantage of their coverage to maybe support a political view, but I wish they would realize that some foreigners may then think that their humble opinions are a general consensus.

And that is my humble opinion on the subject;)

[seriousfun]

Yes, Natalie Maines has the right to express any opinion any time she wants any place she wants.

It is the lowest form of anti-americanism to suggest that an American is anti-american for his or her opinions.

Yes, entertainers do have an advantage in that they can engage an audience with their opinions. I know quite a few entertainers, and there is a political cross-section much like that of the rest of society, some are more verbal than others. I do feel that some of the more liberal views get expressed more because creative people tend to have more exposure to the world around them and to the inner workings of the heart than most others. This tends to lead toward a kind of compassion that you probably won't get from, say, the CEO of Enron.

This thread is officially OT!!!(except to say that the Chicks are still sexy).

[jay_ba]

Here's a nickle's worth of dung:

I don't think that the war in Iraq is warrented (the case has not been totally proven, well not enough to have people die). I also don't think that Bush will back down. This is a second chance to "get" Hussein. And I agree with Gilly, if there is a war with Iraq, not all the battles will be "over there".

Texas was its own country, it was called Mexico.

Personally, I don't listen much to celebrity opinion. I usually find that they are at best, half-informed and half-cocked.

What scares me more than Iraq is North Korea. There is a nation with nothing to lose. No oil, no resources, no trade, no commerce. How can you put trade or aid restrictions/bans on a country that has nothing? They are a very dangerous group as their leaders are not likely to back down (a loss of face issue). That is not going to be a pretty item.

[Eros]

And to beat it all...they didn't have the guts to say it on American soil....They made the now-infamous comment at a concert in the UK!

[PantyFanatic]

I’m with Irish!

So give Texas back to Mexico.




We all know how plugged into reality celebrities (from anywhere in the world) are. The only thing that does bother me is the people that give a shit what they have to say. That 1% of humanity that is in your face flapping their jaws are not the problem. Check out the 99% that cock their ears to listen to these assholes.

Leaders of any kind, … for any reason, can only lead followers.:cool:

[sad_sam]

First lets clear up a little history.

Texas won its indenpendence from Mexico in 1836 and was its own country, The Republic of Texas until it became a State in 1845.

Of all the States it is the only one that was a country unto itself before becoming a state.

Secondly, yes I do believe that the Dixie Chics or anyone else is entitled to their own personal opinon. But I don't think that they have the right because of their celebrity to foster it on every one else. At the same time I am personally tired of the press creating their own news by by stiring up controversy. They really don't seem to be able to report just the news events without trying to explain what it means. They think that we are so stupid that we can't judge for ourselves what it means.

In conclusion I have my own opinon about Iraq but I am not going to foster it on all the rest of the people at Pixies.

Hope you Feel better soon Irish !!

sam

[Steph]

I don't think anyone should get shit upon for not agreeing with the President of the United States. He's not there by divine rule, for goodness sake!

The tide is turning against this war and I don't think people should shit on the Chicks! They rock! I'm gonna buy their CDs no matter what. If they love Bush great, if they don't agree with him, oh well. Their harmonies rock!

[horseman12]

just seen on the news this morning that the lead singer of dc's recanted her statement.

but as for her statement i think anyone has the right to voice thier own opinion, i may not like it but i'm free to say that i don't.

thier are truly hundreds of reasons why things are happening the way they are, and whats up with the human shield that was going to Iraq to block the war, what did it take a trip there for them to realize that the armies would be using REAL bullets and bombs?

[horseman12]

GOD BLESS TEXAS

[DallasLiving]

I believe everyone has the right to their opinions. But from what I have read on these two sites. They may be anti-war, but they were playing up more for the crowd to cheer them more than anything. Once the concert was over with, she recanted her statement some. But in each one, she keeps on mentioning about the huge anti-war sentiments that were there. Can someone say stroking to get a response?

First the quote from over seas by the reporter that did the interview.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/reviews/story/0,11712,912236,00.html

And I think the website that Eros was talking about here in Dallas.

http://www.kscs.com/listingsentryfeature.asp?ID=79337&PT=FeatureStory

The thing about a celebrity saying their peace. It is like a politician. They are in the public's eye, and if it wasn't for the public they wouldn't be where they are. I am not saying this for sure, but I thought I heard on the radio already that the Chicks have already cancelled one concert here in Texas.

I know that this war is drawing out different opinions. But when you are a celebrity, what happens if you piss off half of your fans, or more. How much can it bite into your checkbook? I have already heard of film stars that are saying they are having problems getting leading roles because nobody wants to put them in the lead of a multi-million dollar movie, when they aren't sure if people will come to see them after they have said things. Only time will tell. I do hope that this can be settled peacefully, but if not then I will back the men and women in the forces. And our President. And it isn't just because he is from Texas.

Just my two cents. :)

[DallasLiving]

Originally posted by horseman12
GOD BLESS TEXAS

Tosses Horseman a cold Beer.

[Irish]

I wrote the part about Texans saying that Texas was its own
country,purely out of jest.What I meant is that, most of the
Texans that I have met,are so "GUNG HO"for Texas,that they
act like it is a country.Nevermind!A joke isn't funny if you have
to explain it.I,personally,think that it is "COOL"A little pride,is
good in my opinion.I had some bad times in Texas,but I haven't
been there since "62,and not only have I changed alot but I'm
sure Texas has too!I agree that people should have the right
to voice their opinion but don't think that one should air ones
dirty laundry,in another country.The statement of "Stroking" to
better ones image,is true in this case.I know that many people
are against attacking Iraq,but yesterdays Fox News Survey said
that 71% of AMERICANS were in favor of stopping Saddam!
Irish P.S.My $.02.
P.P.S.Heard on the news this morning,that the lead singer of the
D.C. was apologising to Pres. Bush.I also heard a co-broadcast,
from a Houston Radio Sta.yesterday stating that those were the
lead singers feelings and shouldn't be taken as the other singers
sentiments!

[DallasLiving]

Yes she did, on the second link, Irish. They have what she said, and I quote off the page.

"In a follow-up quote from The Dixie Chicks, Maines was quoted as saying: "We've been overseas for several weeks and have been reading and following the news accounts of our governments' position. The anti-American sentiment that has unfolded here is astounding" And said that she apologized because she does respect the President."


And we won't hold the comment about Texas against you, Irish. ;) No lynching yet. LMAO

[Steph]

Irish, my friend, I completely respect your opinion but not your source in this case. FOX news is a right-wing org. They're going to report polls that fit their mandate.

The Chicks weren't airing dirty laundry, they were expressing their opinions. If Bush wants to get the entire world involved in this war, he's got to expect people to have the same right to express their opinions.

[Oldfart]

Just a couple of points.

Minor celebs are newsworthy, for who they are, not what they say.

The point behind this war has never been broadcast to my knowledge

as yet. The probability of Saddam giving biological or nuclear weapons

to terrorists is minimal, but a change of regime there into an Islamic

fundamentalist state would place them in the hands of the extremists.

It has little to do with Bin Ladan, yet.

[Irish]

DallasLiving---As I said,I haven't been in Texas since 1962.I
was 17 then,in Basic(Lackland)&Tech. school(Wichita Falls,
Sheppard)I'm sure that Texas&I have changed alot over the years
Steph---Our opinions,on just about everything,are so different,
that I'm not suprised that they differ now.We'll just say that it's
the MAIN difference between being a Canadian&an American!
Irish

[Steph]

Still buds? :)

[Irish]

Steph---Of course!
At one time(when I was younger),I thought that if anyone
thought different than me,they were wrong.Now with maturity
(hopefully)I realise that as long as they are hurting no-one,
that doesn't make them a bad person. Irish
P.S.It's amazing,the way that your outlook changes,as you get
older!

[BlueSwede]

I TOTALLY agree with Seriousfun and Steph.

[jay_ba]

With all the talk, I just had to add this here.

[jennaflower]

I am failing miserably at keeping my two cents to myself... the struggle is killing me... so I give up... here goes...

cha ching

I have absolutely no problem with individuals having their own opinion on the war... I don't even have a problem with hearing the opinions of others... it is their RIGHT to speak their minds.. that is one of the founding freedoms of this country.

That being said, I do have a HUGE problem with the likes of the Dixie Chicks, Martin Sheen, Jessica Lange, Sean Penn, George Clooney, and others...

First, I don't believe for a moment that their is ONE person in the USA that WANTS war.... not even President Bush... for those celebrities to claim that, is completely ignorant.

Secondly, there is a difference between voicing your opinion in a rational manner (and not making it appear that our country is not united) and the way that these celebrities have chosen to do so. I don't recall contacting any of the celebrities in question and asking their opinion, nor do I honestly care what they think.

The celebrities in question are crying foul (no doubt Natalie Maines will too) that they are being punished for voicing their opinions and exercising their right to do so. Sean Penn has claimed that he has lost a $10 Million dollar role due to his outspoken behavior... I say toooo bad Mr. Penn.

I look at it this way... if you were shopping in a grocery store and everytime you checked out the clerk began to preach to you about his/her political view... would you not consider shopping elsewhere? or at the very least go thru another checker... I know I would. That being said, the celebrities in question cannot expect continued support from their fan base if those individuals do not agree with thier stance.

As for Mr. Penn losing his $10 million dollar role, oh well. It is the RIGHT of the director/producer/author to cast individuals in their movie that they believe will lend to the ultimate success of the film... he shouldn't have to risk his dream and hard work on the possibility that Sean Penn's actions will illiminate moviegoers.

I find it ironic that these celebrities have absolutely no problem living in this country and reaping the benefits of doing so... but are the first to attack our government.

As for Natalie Maines, she opened her mouth and will no doubt pay a price for doing so. Her words were sharp and uncalled for and embarassed this country as a whole. I find it amusing that she issued an apology to Pres. Bush citing that he deserves the utmost respect. My guess is that the other Chicks met her back stage and gave her a lashing... one very deserved.

I for one will NOT purchase any Dixie Chicks music (sad because I really enjoyed their talent), I no longer watch the West Wing, I have no desire to watch Sean Penn (sad again because I think he is talented beyond measure), and don't plan on drooling over George Clooney anytime soon..

All of this being said, no doubt some people may claim that I am guilty of the reverse.... speaking out in support of our government. The difference is, that I am doing so on a small scale, amoung friends and those who know me well enough to already have a understanding of my opinions. I am NOT standing in front of thousands and giving other countries the image that our country is not ununitied.

This is no longer a political issue, for me it is about the THOUSANDS of soldiers & sailors that we have on far away soil. Imagine what those men and women are thinking... fighting for the freedoms that we hold dear yet some seem not to respect.

okay.. off my soap box... and I apologize in advance if my post offends anyone..

[seriousfun]

>>First, I don't believe for a moment that their is ONE person in the USA that WANTS war.... not even President Bush... for those celebrities to claim that, is completely ignorant.<<

Well, do a little research. The Bush administration this week released a list of the top contractors who will rebuild the infrastructure of Iraq after we defeat them. Among the top five are Haliburton (Dick Cheney's company) and the Carlyle Group (G. Bush Sr., Rumsfeld, and many other familiar names). We are paying $2.14/gal for regular out here in CA; do you not think that the Texas oil industry is not profiting from this? Someone does want war, and it is the people in power in Washington who are making money now and will reap tremendous profits when this is done.

>>Secondly, there is a difference between voicing your opinion in a rational manner (and not making it appear that our country is not united) and the way that these celebrities have chosen to do so. I don't recall contacting any of the celebrities in question and asking their opinion, nor do I honestly care what they think.<<

Please, do not buy their records, attend their concerts, watch their shows, or attend anti-war rallies where they express opinions. This is your personal choice, as is it theirs to express their opinion (no matter how poorly chosen or positioned). Just do not question their right to say what they want. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Or move to Iraq, where they won't be able to express these opinions, and you won't be able to hear them (through the burka):rolleyes: :rolleyes:

>>Sean Penn has claimed that he has lost a $10 Million dollar role due to his outspoken behavior... I say toooo bad Mr. Penn.<<

Could it be because the little weasel can't act, and hasn't had a profitable movie in ten years?

>>I look at it this way... if you were shopping in a grocery store and everytime you checked out the clerk began to preach to you about his/her political view... would you not consider shopping elsewhere? or at the very least go thru another checker... I know I would. That being said, the celebrities in question cannot expect continued support from their fan base if those individuals do not agree with thier stance. <<

You have choice of grocery stores, you don't have choice of other Dixie Chicks. Neither Natalie Maines nor your checker has a lock on clear political thinking, but they were in this hypothetical situation speaking on common legal ground: expressing an opinion in a non-public place. The owner of the establishment (in the case of the concert, the promoter) would have a legal right to silence the speaker, unlike the protection we all have under the constitution to publicly speak our minds. In each case, vote with your pocketbook.

...

>>I find it ironic that these celebrities have absolutely no problem living in this country and reaping the benefits of doing so... but are the first to attack our government. <<

Again and again, they have a right to say whatever they want (as long as it is not slanderous or libelous) anywhere, anytime about anyone. This is what this country is built on.


>>I for one will NOT purchase any Dixie Chicks music (sad because I really enjoyed their talent), I no longer watch the West Wing, I have no desire to watch Sean Penn (sad again because I think he is talented beyond measure), and don't plan on drooling over George Clooney anytime soon.<<

well, I'll give you a week over Clooney :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ;)

>>...The difference is, that I am doing so on a small scale, amoung friends and those who know me well enough to already have a understanding of my opinions. I am NOT standing in front of thousands and giving other countries the image that our country is not ununitied. <<

No difference. Don't forget this.

And this country is far from united on this.

>>This is no longer a political issue, for me it is about the THOUSANDS of soldiers & sailors that we have on far away soil. Imagine what those men and women are thinking... fighting for the freedoms that we hold dear yet some seem not to respect.<<

It is these soldiers and sailors whose blood will be spilled for the profit of a few wealthy, powerful men. I think we have all learned that it is awful to treat these soldiers and sailors as the bad guys, as some were after Vietnam, and I see zero chance they won't get all of our respect.

...

Jenna, thanks for your reasoned opinions.

IMO, considering the overwhelming opposition to our plan of action from nearly every other country in the world, Natalie Maines' statement probably sounds, right or wrong, like a solitary voice of reason to those outside the US. The fact that she can express her opinion is probably the strongest example of our freedoms that we can portray.

And I like you up on that soapbox. The view's pretty good from down here :D

[Irish]

jennaflower---I agree with ALMOST everything that you said.
The only thing is that being strictly hetrosexual,I have never
drooled over George Clooney.
It isn't very often that you will find an Irishman and an English
man agreeing on anything.I have to say that I admire Tony
Blair,for sticking to his beliefs instead of bowing to the majority
of political beliefs,other then his.In most cases it's called"Political
Suicide!" Irish
P.S.You don't find many people willing to fight City Hall!

[jennaflower]

Seriousfan.....

believe me.. I can last much longer than 3 weeks without drooling over Mr. Clooney... I actually don't find him overly attractive (I know.. I know.. I must be crazy).

You are probably pretty close to the truth when you say that Texas is going to make out well over the oil issue... personally I don't have a problem with that... I would rather see companies in Texas (or any other state in the USA) make money on the oil situation than the forgein countries that do currently. In my opinion that comes back to taking care of our own before taking care of the rest. (But I think that is entirely another issue).

Like I said before, I won't be giving my hard earned money to those celebrities that are outspoken on their anti war stance... I do agree that it is their RIGHT to do so and that they should be allowed to excersize it. However, Freedom isn't free in any aspect and excersizing this RIGHT at this particular time comes at a price... and those that wish to be outspoken are taking the risk of me and millions of others boycotting their films, music, books, etc.

I am a staunch supporter of the RIGHTS that we have in this country including freedom of speech. People seem to fail to remember that these Rights come at a price.

Irish.. up until the last couple years I have paid little attention to the Prime Minister (which I am completely ashamed of since my Mom is from England) but I must say that I am pleased with Mr. Blair's performance thru all of this.

stepping off the soap box again :)

Note: My strong opinions is probably one of the reasons I am single.. ROFL...

[sad_sam]

Here, Here Jenna !!

[Irish]

I know that supporting your soldiers,doesn't seem that
important,to most of the younger members,but I can tell you,
from my own memories,that when you come home,filled with
pride,because of the good job,that your Govt.,has told you that
you have done!It doesn't make you feel that good,when people
spit at you and call you a baby killer! Irish
P.S.REMEMBER,HANOI JANE!

[LixyChick]

Originally posted by Irish
I know that supporting your soldiers,doesn't seem that
important,to most of the younger members,but I can tell you,
from my own memories,that when you come home,filled with
pride,because of the good job,that your Govt.,has told you that
you have done!It doesn't make you feel that good,when people
spit at you and call you a baby killer! Irish
P.S.REMEMBER,HANOI JANE!

Do you know that she is actually receiving an award as one of the "Women of the Century"?

Whatever you do, don't slip her a note of desperation!

To this day I wonder, does she even realize that WE know what she did? How can she sleep at night?

[Irish]

LixyChick---I can ASSURE you that any friends that I have,that were POWs at the time,will never forget her! Irish

[Oldfart]

A different take on warfare gentle folk.


The U.S.S. Constitution (Old Ironsides) as a combat vessel carried
48,600 gallons of fresh water for her crew of 475 officers and men. This was sufficient to last six months of sustained operations at sea. She carried no evaporators (i.e. fresh water distillers!).

However, let it be noted that according to her log, "On July 27,
1798, the U.S.S. Constitution sailed from Boston with a full complement of 475 officers and men, 48,600 gallons of fresh water, 7,400 cannon shot, 11,600 pounds of black powder and 79,400 gallons of rum."

Her mission: "To destroy and harass English shipping." Making
Jamaica on 6 October, she took on 826 pounds of flour and 68,300 gallons of rum.

Then she headed for the Azores, arriving there 12 November. She
provisioned with 550 pounds of beef and 64,300 gallons of Portuguese wine.

On 18 November, she set sail for England. In the ensuing days she defeated five British men-of-war and captured and scuttled 12 English merchantmen, salvaging only the rum aboard each.

By 26 January, her powder and shot were exhausted. Nevertheless, although unarmed she made a night raid up the Firth of Clyde in Scotland. Her landing party captured a whisky distillery and transferred 40,000 gallons of single malt Scotch aboard by dawn. Then she headed home.

The U.S.S. Constitution arrived in Boston on 20 February, 1799,
with no cannon shot, no food, no powder, no rum, no wine, no whisky and 38,600 gallons of stagnant water.

GO NAVY!

[Scarecrow]

Irish why did you have to mention her. I will kept my comments to myself, yes I will, I really will........

[seriousfun]

Originally posted by jennaflower
...
Note: My strong opinions is probably one of the reasons I am single.. ROFL...

You keep on speaking out! A strong, smart woman turns me on.

[skipthisone]

Dammmmmittt....I tried to keep my mouth shut, but cannot any longer.

1st I hated the Dixie Chicks before this so, the feeling is nothing new to me.

2nd, I have not the smallest problem with what Ms. Maines said about the President.

3rd. With that said, I have the biggest problem in the world with where she said it. No citizen of any country should ever go to another country and speak against their home country. For some reason that just strikes me as one of the most traitorous things one can do.

So Martin Sheen, Sheryl Crow, Alec Baldwin (Wait wasnt he supposed to move to Europe if Bush won....but I digress) or any of the others that speak out while they are on AMerican soil are free to do so, as long as they dont speak out directly against the soldiers (that I cannot handle). That is what makes the US the US.

[Irish]

jay_ba---My wife took yesterday,off from work!She is a HUGE
C&W fan.I showed her your album cover.I have known her for
approx. 40yrs.I don't think that I have EVER seen her laugh
harder! Irish

[jseal]

jay_ba,

The jpeg is too cool!

I agree that North Korea presents the world with quite a different set of problems than does Iraq. Their relative isolation from the world removes many opportunities to manage their international behavior. In that sense, they are rather like the Spartans of ancient Greece.

One of the benefits of not listening to C&W music is that what the Dixie Chicks say is as irrelevant to me as their music.

Oops, I put that in writing, didn't I?

[jseal]

Seriousfun, In re research…

Unless the peace movement has discovered telepathy, I doubt that it's in any better position to divine the hidden thoughts or secret motivations of George Bush and Tony Blair than I am. Arguing about unstated motives, therefore, is a waste of time - claims cannot be proven or disproven.

Is the war with Iraq about oil when all is said and done? The anti-war movement seems to think so. I am not so sure.

Is it so difficult to imagine that both Bush and Blair sincerely believe - rightly or wrongly - that a well-armed Iraq poses an intolerable danger to the civilized world? If access to oil were of concern to them, one might have expected members of their administrations to hint as much. After all, the Thatcher and Bush "senior" administrations were quite open about the role that oil played in justifying the first go-around in Kuwait. Polls in the United States revealed at the time, moreover, that the public responded favorably to the argument. Why the supposed reticence now?

Regardless, it's difficult to know exactly what's being alleged when one is confronted by the slogan "No Blood for Oil!"

If the argument is that war is primarily being executed to ensure global access to Iraqi oil reserves, then it flounders upon misunderstanding. The only thing preventing Iraqi oil from entering the world market in force is the partial U.N. embargo on Iraqi exports. Surely if access to Iraqi oil were the issue, it would have occurred to Bush and Blair that removing the embargo is about 100 billion dollars cheaper - and less politically risky - than going to war.

If the argument were that war is being undertaken to grab Iraqi reserves, flood the market with oil, bust the OPEC cartel, and provide cheap energy to western consumers, then war would be a dagger pointed at the heart of big oil companies. That's because low prices equal low profits. But if the market were flooded with cheap Iraqi oil, it would also wipe out the small-time producers in Texas, Oklahoma, and the American Southwest that President Bush has long considered his best political friends.

Accordingly, it's impossible to square this story with the allegation that President Bush is a puppet of the oil industry. If oil company "fat cats" were calling the shots - as is often alleged by the protesters - President Bush would almost certainly not go to war. He would instead embrace the Franco-German-Russian plan of muscular but indefinite inspections. Because keeping the world on the precipice of uncertainty regarding conflict is the best guarantee that oil prices, (and thus, oil profits,) will remain at current levels.

If the argument is that "Big Oil" is less interested in high prices than it is with outright ownership of the Iraqi reserves, then how can we account for Secretary of State Colin Powell's repeated promise that the oil reserves will be transferred to the Iraqi government after a new leadership is established? Do the protestors think that this high-profile public commitment is a bald-faced lie? If outright ownership of oil is the real goal of this war, then I'm forced to wonder why the U.S. didn't seize the Kuwaiti fields more than 10 years ago.

If the argument is that this war is aimed at installing a pro-American regime more inclined to grant oil contracts to American and British rather than French and Russian oil firms, then it invites a similar charge that France and Russia are against war, primarily to protect their cozy economic relationships with the existing Iraqi regime. Regardless, only one or two American or British firms in this scenario would "win" economically while the rest would lose because increased production would lower global oil prices and thus profits. Because no one knows who would win the post-war contract "lottery," it makes little sense for the oil industry (or the politicians who supposedly cater to them) to support war.

Moreover, the profit opportunities afforded by Iraqi development contracts are overstated. The post-war Iraqi regime would certainly ensure that most of the profits from development were captured by the new government, whose reconstruction needs will be monumental. In fact, Secretary Powell has repeatedly hinted that Iraqi oil revenues would be used for exactly that purpose. Big money in the oil industry goes to those who own their reserves or who secure favorable development contracts, not to those who are forced to surrender most of the profits up-front through negotiation.

If the argument is that the United States is going to war to tame OPEC by ensuring that a puppet regime friendly to America holds the second largest reserves within the cartel, then it runs up against the fact that the United States has never had much complaint with OPEC. Occasional posturing notwithstanding, both have the same goal: stable prices between 20 and 28 dollars a barrel. The cartel wants to keep prices in that range because it maximizes their profits. The United States wants to keep prices in that range because it ensures the continued existence of the oil industry in the United States without doing too much damage to the American economy. The United States doesn't need a client state within the cartel, particularly when the cost of procuring such a state will reach into the hundreds of billions of dollars.

Oil, however, is relevant to this extent: Whoever controls those reserves sits atop a large source of potential revenue, which, in the hands of a rogue state, could bankroll a sizeable and dangerous military arsenal. That's why the United States and Great Britain care more about containing the ambitions of Saddam Hussein than, say, the ambitions of Robert Mugabe. Still, if seizing oil fields from anti-western regimes is the name of the game, why aren't U.S. troops massing on the Venezuelan border and menacing Castro "Mini-Me" Hugo Chavez?

In sum, the argument that the war with Iraq is fundamentally about oil doesn't add up. While everyone loves a nice, tidy political morality play, I doubt there is one to be found here.

[jennaflower]

Tonight... I spent a little time surfing.. trying to find "celebrities" who are outspoken in support of our country, our government, and our military... I happened acroos the web page for one of my all time favorite Country Music performers... none other than Charlie Daniels... thought I would share with you a few of his postings on the site...

Sean Penn Gives Aid and Comfort To The Enemy

I’ve seen a lot of stupid things done in the name of trying to make
America look bad but not since Jane Fonda’s ill fated trip to Hanoi have
I seen anything as stupid and totally unpatriotic as Sean Penn’s trip to
Baghdad.

It was tantamount to spitting in the face of America, an act so low that
I don’t believe that the likes of Barbara Streisand and Alex Baldwin
would stoop to it. It amounts to treason in my book.

I would like to see Mr. Penn, hell I’m not going to call him mister,
Baghdad Sean have to live under Saddam Hussein's rule for about six
months and see what he thinks of America then.

America has put him in a privileged class with money and perks that few
people on earth ever know and he has chosen to turn his back on it.
When I hear somebody defend this creep it makes my blood boil.

I heard a guy the other night saying that it was good for Sean Penn to
go to Iraq so he could evaluate the situation for himself. That is one
of the most asinine statements ever uttered.

What he saw was exactly what Saddam wanted him to see. What did he
expect to find? Of course he saw misery, of course he saw
deprivation, that’s what’s happening in Iraq and it is not the fault of
the embargo imposed on the country. It is because of a heartless SOB by
the name of Saddam Huessien. The minute he’s gone you’ll see the world
rush to the aid of Iraq.

Sean Penn you are a disgrace to America and I don’t care what your
Hollywood friends pat you on the back and tell you. You have insulted
every man and woman who wears the uniform of this nation. You have
stepped on the graves of everybody who ever died in the cause of
freedom. You have allowed yourself to be used by an enemy so evil that
I can’t even find the words to describe him.

You don’t even deserve the right to call yourself an American. You are
despicable and vile and you have dirt on your hands that you’re going to
have to live a long time to wash off, if ever.

You will live to regret your little foray into enemy territory Sean
Penn. The blood of innocent life lost on 9 -11 cries out against you;
for what is the difference between Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Ladin?

You’ve insulted every white cross in Arlington cemetary and
every mother who ever lost a son or daughter to the horrors of war.
If I see your name on a marquee I will not attend the movie, if one of
your movies comes on TV, I will change the channel.

I’m sick and tired of people like you whose unrealistic view of the
world manifests itself in blaming America for the ills of the world.

Sean Penn if this country is as bad as you seem to think why don’t you
just do the ones of us who love it a favor and get the hell out. I’m
sure you can afford to live just about anywhere you want to. You might
try France, they don’t seem to have much use for America or better than
that, why don’t you just find an island somewhere. And if you go how
about taking the rest of your buddies with you? Then you can all go and
build the kind of country you want to live in. You don’t even have to
have a military, you can all take turns being president, or I have a
better idea, why don’t you take Bill and Hillary along and they can
just be king and queen.
I heard it in a CDB song one time, “When you shake hands with the devil
you get burned”.

What do you think?

God Bless America

Charlie Daniels



Baghdad Sean Is At It Again

There is a very radical far left, little known satellite network which I
will not even name, one of those condescending, pseudo high brow
supposedly intellectual outfits who just loves to criticize America.

I was surfing the other day and saw the face of none other than Baghdad
Sean Penn, the traitorous little Hollywood hotshot who went to Iraq to
try to make America look bad.

He was pointing out that the Iraqi people were in terrible shape, they
were being deprived of the essentials of life, food and medicine and
such and that the American embargo was the cause of all their ills.

I got so mad I had to change channels. Here is this American citizen,
who has reaped rewards far beyond those of 99.9% of the people in this
nation, standing there blaming the woes of the Iraqi people on the
United States of America.

This is idiocy. Our embargoes have caused this situation. Mr. Penn,
did Saddam Hussein have nothing to do with it?

Do you not think that this unspeakable monster and his family live in
mansions and indulge their every whim while his people live in abject
misery?

Are you naive enough not to know that you were shown exactly what Saddam
wanted you to see? Did he show you any of the torture chambers where he
tortures little children to obtain confessions from their parents. Did
he show you the underground tunnels where he stores his chemical and
biological weapons? Did he show you any of the women who have been
raped and horribly abused by his maniac son?
Don’t you know that even if we lifted the embargo that the major part of
the aid would never get to the people, that it would be taken away by
Saddam and his henchmen?

What is it about Hollywood that so blinds you people to the evil in the
world, why do you insist that the United States is such a terrible
nation?

The people of Iraq will only get the things they need when Saddam is six
feet under the sand. He is the problem, he is the cause of the misery
the Iraqi people are going through.

I did not even hear the words Saddam Hussein come out of your mouth, how
can you be so blind? The Iraqi people’s problems didn’t start with the
American embargo or even the first Gulf War. They started when Saddam
came to power.

Iraq could be a rich and prosperous country if their leader didn’t spend
all their resources on military hardware and armies.

What about the billions of dollars he gets from France and Germany and
the other countries he has oil deals with? Do you see him spending any
of that money on food and medicine for his starving citizens?

How dare you blame Iraq’s problems on the U.S.A. and have the nerve to
come back to this country. You should have stayed and used some of the
millions of dollars you’ve made in this evil nation to help the Iraqi
citizens.

One thing about it Mr. Penn, you will be remembered for a whole lot more
than your acting. There will be hundreds of thousands of men and women
who proudly wear the uniform of the United States of America who will
remember you for a long time. They will remember that you went to an
enemy country and gave aid and comfort to not only an enemy, but also
one of the most evil people on the face of the earth.

They will remember your words, criticizing the country they love enough
to die for.

I wouldn’t be going to any Veterans of Foreign War meetings if I were
you, Mr. Penn.

By the way do you remember Jane Fonda?

What do you think?

God Bless America

Charlie Daniels

[jennaflower]

This following one is my favorite... and it begs the question... what does Charlie think of the Dixie Chicks... Oh.. I will be monitoring his site to find out...

An Open Letter To The Hollywood Bunch

Ok let’s just say for a moment you bunch of pampered, overpaid,
unrealistic children had your way and the U.S.A. didn’t go into Iraq.

Let’s say that you really get your way and we destroy all our nuclear
weapons and stick daisies in our gun barrels and sit around with some
white wine and cheese and pat ourselves on the back, so proud of what
we’ve done for world peace.

Let’s say that we cut the military budget to just enough to keep the
National Guard on hand to help out with floods and fires.

Let’s say that we close down our military bases all over the world and
bring the troops home, increase our foreign aid and drop all the trade
sanctions against everybody.

I suppose that in your fantasy world this would create a utopian world
where everybody would live in peace. After all, the great monster, the
United States of America, the cause of all the world’s trouble would
have disbanded it’s horrible military and certainly all the other
countries of the world would follow suit.

After all, they only arm themselves to defend their countries from the
mean old U.S.A.

Why you bunch of pitiful, hypocritical, idiotic, spoiled mugwumps.
get your head out of the sand and smell the Trade Towers burning.
Do you think that a trip to Iraq by Sean Penn did anything but encourage
a wanton murderer to think that the people of the U.S.A. didn’t have the
nerve or the guts to fight him?

Barbra Streisand’s fanatical and hateful rankings about George Bush
makes about as much sense as Michael Jackson hanging a baby over a
railing.

You people need to get out of Hollywood once in a while and get out into
the real world. You’d be surprised at the hostility you would find out
here.
Stop in at a truck stop and tell an overworked, long distance truck
driver that you don’t think Saddam Hussein is doing anything wrong.

Tell a farmer with a couple of sons in the military that you think the
United States has no right to defend itself.

Go down to Baxley, Georgia and hold an anti-war rally and see what the
folks down there think about you.

You people are some of the most disgusting examples of a waste of
protoplasm I’ve ever had the displeasure to hear about.

Sean Penn, you’re a traitor to the United States of America. You gave
aid and comfort to the enemy. How many American lives will your
little, ”fact finding trip“ to Iraq cost? You encouraged Saddam to
think that we didn’t have the stomach for war.

You people protect one of the most evil men on the face of this earth
and won’t lift a finger to save the life of an unborn baby. Freedom of
choice you say?

Well I’m going to exercise some freedom of choice of my own. If I see
any of your names on a marquee, I’m going to boycott the movie. I will
completely stop going to movies if I have to. In most cases it
certainly wouldn’t be much of a loss.

You scoff at our military who’s boots you’re not even worthy to shine.
They go to battle and risk their lives so ingrates like you can live in
luxury.
The day of reckoning is coming when you will be faced with the
undeniable truth that the war against Saddam Hussein is the war on
terrorism.

America is in imminent danger. You’re either for her or against her.
There is no middle ground.

I think we all know where you stand.

What do you think?

God Bless America

Charlie Daniels

[horseman12]

wwwwwwwwwwooooooooooowwwwwwwwwww

You tell'em babydoll!!

now thats a man of few words and to the point, don't waste anything

[BlueSwede]

"The Bush administration this week released a list of the top contractors who will rebuild the infrastructure of Iraq after we defeat them. Among the top five are Haliburton (Dick Cheney's company) and the Carlyle Group (G. Bush Sr., Rumsfeld, and many other familiar names). We are paying $2.14/gal for regular out here in CA; do you not think that the Texas oil industry is not profiting from this? Someone does want war, and it is the people in power in Washington who are making money now and will reap tremendous profits when this is done."

"Again and again, they have a right to say whatever they want (as long as it is not slanderous or libelous) anywhere, anytime about anyone. This is what this country is built on. "


"IMO, considering the overwhelming opposition to our plan of action from nearly every other country in the world, Natalie Maines' statement probably sounds, right or wrong, like a solitary voice of reason to those outside the US. The fact that she can express her opinion is probably the strongest example of our freedoms that we can portray."

I totally agree w/your quotes, seriousfun. I have heard of the Dixie Chicks but am not familiar w/their music. However, I was glad to hear that word got out that not all Americans agree with Bush or the actions his administration is taking. I just wish Bush had listened to what most of the rest of the world has been saying, along w/what a lot of us in this country have been saying, instead of having his agenda set from the get go.

[horseman12]

maybe we should just let saddam do as he pleases leave him alone let commit all the genocide he wants, let him take over the whole middle east who are we to say that one regime should not murder anyone who stands in thier way? let our fuel price rise to $25.00/ gal. hell this is a rich country. why should we care or consider another human life just because he/she live in another country? hell thier not our problems. let N. Korea nuke who the hell they want to! And yes lets not tell how the countries who are against taking out the current iraqi regime stand to lose billions of dollars......no, no lets not admit that!


p.s. yes!!!! I am being very Sarcastic!

[jennaflower]

ROFL... a weeee bit sarcastic today huh? ;) Someone needs a spankin. LOL

[skipthisone]

Our local stations here (all 3 are owned by the same company) have made it a new policy to not take Dixie Chicks out of the song rotation. But when their songs come up in the computer each DJ is allowed to replace it with Proud to be an American or a patriotic song of the DJ's choice...needless to say there has not been a Dixie Chick song on the radio here in 5 days.

[jseal]

BlueSwede,

One of the splendid things about this community is that it is location independent, and we can enjoy conversation with people in Great Britain, Australia, Canada, and Argentina.

Have you ever wondered why the postings here are from people who live in liberal democracies? I suspect that it is because they are free to do so.

I, for one, look forward to the day when democracy and its necessary freedoms are no longer thought of as a western phenomena. And no, I do not consider that idea to be imperialistic; rather I consider it to be a human ideal towards which we should all strive.

[Irish]

FYI,The senate turned down Bushes idea to drill for oil in the
Artic,yesterday!If the war is strictly about oil,why would he
want to do so?Besides,who wants the Eskimos wildlife views,
brokenup by oilrigs? Irish
P.S.FLASH NEWS REPORT!!! A skywriting airplane has just been
spotted,drawing pictures of Jennas butt,in the sky!Many Iraqi
soldiers,have been captured,jerking-off in their foxholes or trying
to run slowly with their pants around their ankles&erections.The
Armed Forces,wishes to thank Jenna,for serving!

[skipthisone]

LMAO @ Irish

Oh and ....Semper Fi Jenna

[jseal]

Irish,

Radio monitoring service Mediabase 24/7 said that airplay for the group had dropped on all US radio stations by about a fifth in a seven-day period.
Mediabase president Rich Meyer said: "Radio generally reflects the mood of the country.
“If radio perceives that its listeners are upset with the Dixie Chicks, they will respond accordingly."

BBC World Service, http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/2867221.stm

[jennaflower]

ROFL... those poor soldiers... better yet... I could apply myself and write a sexy story for our soilders/sailors, that might boost morale..... :)

[horseman12]

jenna, watch out you might get more ridin' time than you bargained for if you "apply" yourself,,,,,,,,hehehe

[jseal]

horseman12,

Now that would be a re-enlistment bonus which would be difficult to ignore. Indeed, I’m willing to wager that any branch of the armed forces that could provide such an attractive incentive would have no problems meeting its staffing goals. It would stiffen my resolve, that’s for sure.

[Irish]

FYI---Evidently,the gate swings both ways.My TV cable co. has
one station that is called the Preview Channel.It acts like a
TV Guide and tells what is on.I was looking at it last night,because
most of the shows listed in the TV Guide,are wrong because of
conflict coverage.It showed Faith Hill,performing at Fort Bragg.Her
husband,Tim McGraw was there also!It's nice to know that some-
one is showing suppot for the troops! Irish

[jseal]

Irish,

As best as I can tell, very few people don’t support the troops. A distressingly large number would rather that the troops not get rid of the current Iraqi regime.

An interesting dichotomy, that.

[2-4-tea]

Agree or Disagree with the war no matter what the #1 concern should be our troops defending our country. I cannot understand why celerbertys always want to get that political statement in if the lead singer of the Dixie Chicks is ashamed to live in the same state as our president she can move to another state

[jennaflower]

2-4 tea,

I agree.. Natalie could move to another state.. personally I would rather see her move to another country... :)

Altho the Chicks had a scheduled concert after her initial remarks in Germany, hell started to break loose in Iraq. I bet that they cancelled there appearence in Germany and Natalie rushed her ass back to the safety of the US. I find that offensive... yeah.. go ahead bad mouth your president and then expect him to protect you... Kiss my ass. (for visual aid look at my avatar) :)

Been rather pleasant not hearing the Chicks on the radio... think the odds are that I won't be hearing them anytime soon. You can bet that Sony is hot as hell over all of it and have seen a major drop in revenue over this. Actually I would favor Sony attempting to break their contract :)

[jennaflower]

2-4 tea,

I agree.. Natalie could move to another state.. personally I would rather see her move to another country... :)

Altho the Chicks had a scheduled concert after her initial remarks in Germany, hell started to break loose in Iraq. I bet that they cancelled there appearence in Germany and Natalie rushed her ass back to the safety of the US. I find that offensive... yeah.. go ahead bad mouth your president and then expect him to protect you...

Been rather pleasant not hearing the Chicks on the radio... think the odds are that I won't be hearing them anytime soon. You can bet that Sony is hot as hell over all of it and have seen a major drop in revenue over this. Actually I would favor Sony attempting to break their contract :)

[jseal]

2-4-tea,

It’s just business.

Remember that for minor celebrities, free advertising is a target of opportunity. Now, if you could create a scandal and become prominent because of it, and get your band’s name mentioned hundreds, if not thousands of times, and get many, many free hours of advertising because of it – what would you do?

[Goddess]

My opinion.

First off, I agree that people have the right to state their opinion, no doubt about that. However, when one is a celebrity, I believe that they be a little more careful when choosing their words. Espically when it is over something so controversial and when spoken overseas. That was their major mistake.

Will I burn my cds and not buy another one? No. Why should the other Chicks be burned because one member of their group stupidly opened her big mouth? Its about as fair as when one of my customers last night was unhappy with a department person's performance and came up to blame me and bitch me out "just because I work for the same company." (After he yelled at her too.) Natalie opened her big mouth and yes, will pay for it. Can you guys name any famous person who had not had their 15 minutes of shame?

*runs away now*

[Irish]

jseal---What would I do?I sure as hell,wouldn't badmouth
anyone!My wife will be the first to tell you that I always say
the things that I feel.Perhaps that is why I have had so many
jobs.Luckily,I am good at what I do.My employer has to weigh
wether(sp?)I am worth more to them by putting up with me,
or letting me go,because I am such a pain.The way that I look
at it is that you have to respect the person that looks back
from the mirror.Maybe not financially smart,but I still respect
myself.As long as the bills are paid,I,d rather have that respect!
Irish
P.S.I can't be THAT bad!May1,I will be married for 39yrs,and my
wife isn't ugly!You have to take the good with the bad!

[seriousfun]

Like an idiot, I'm going to stir this up again =)

This is a parody, not Natalie Maines' words, from www.blogcritics.org:


Apology from Natalie Maines of the Dixie Chicks

As a concerned American citizen, I apologize to President Bush because my remark was disrespectful. I now realize that whoever holds that office should be treated with the utmost respect.

I hope everyone understands, I’m just a young girl who grew up in Texas. As far back as I can remember, I heard people say they were ashamed of President Clinton. I saw bumper stickers calling him everything from a pothead to a murderer. I heard people on the radio and TV like Rush Limbaugh, Pat Robertson, Newt Gingrich and Trent Lott bad mouthing the President and ridiculing his wife and daughter at every opportunity.

I heard LOTS of people disrespecting the President. So I guess I just assumed it was acceptable behavior.

But now, thanks to the thousands of angry people who want radio stations to boycott our music because criticizing the President is unpatriotic, I realize it’s wrong to have a liberal opinion if you’re a country music artist. I guess I should have thought about that before deciding to play music that attracts hypocritical red necks.

I also realize now that I’m supposed to just sing and look cute so our fans won’t have anything to upset them while they’re cheating on their wives or getting in drunken bar fights or driving around in their pickup trucks shooting highway signs and small animals.

And most important of all, I realize that it’s wrong for a celebrity to voice a political opinion, unless they’re Charlie Daniels, Clint Black, Merle Haggard, Barbara Mandrell, Loretta Lynn, Ricky Skaggs, Travis Tritt, Hank Williams Jr, Amy Grant, Larry Gatlin, Crystal Gayle, Reba McEntire, Lee Greenwood, Lorrie Morgan, Anita Bryant, Mike Oldfield, Ted Nugent, Wayne Newton, Dick Clark, Jay Leno, Drew Carey, Dixie Carter, Victoria Jackson, Charleton Heston, Fred Thompson, Ben Stein, Bruce Willis, Kevin Costner, Arnold Schwartzenegger, Bo Derek, Rick Schroeder, George Will, Pat Buchanan, Bill O’Reilly, Joe Rogan, Delta Burke, Robert Conrad or Jesse Ventura.

God Bless America,
Natalie

[jseal]

seriousfun,

Other than self-indulgent antagonism...

Your point is...

[Steph]

It was serious fun :) The people who support the prez can say whatever they want about the left wing. Oftentimes, it becomes an attack on who they are . . . someone lumped all Canadians into the viewpoint I share . . . not right, not fair. I think that was the satirical point the blog made. Why is Charlie Daniels opinion respected more than Natalie Maines? Not fair, not fair . . .

[Irish]

I can only say that I asked my wife,last night,to start thinking
about what she wanted for an anniversary present.We will
be married for 39yrs on May1st.We try to scrimp our pennies,so we don't buy gifts,just for the sake of buying a gift.(Not very
romantic,but things are looked at with sense as you age)She said
that she didn't know.I kiddingly told her that I would get her the
latest Dixie Chix CD.She is a big C&W fan.She told me to buy it &
she would smash it&give it back to me!
seriousfan---Natalies comments sounded sarcastic to me.I under-
stand her point,but it was also sarcastic.As said by someone else,
it's too bad that the others will suffer because she opened her
mouth.I agree that everyone should be able to voice their opinion,
but thought should be used when others are effected. Irish

[seriousfun]

Originally posted by Irish
...seriousfan---Natalies comments sounded sarcastic to me.I under-
stand her point,but it was also sarcastic.As said by someone else,
it's too bad that the others will suffer because she opened her
mouth.I agree that everyone should be able to voice their opinion,
but thought should be used when others are effected. Irish

Please read my message... especially the part at the top that explains these are not Natalie Maines' words...:fly:

My only personal point about this whole deal has consistently been: be careful about our freedom of expression. This is perhaps the number one thing to defend in our society, and I take very seriously any represssion. Any person who does not want to support our constitutionally guaranteed freedoms can take a close look at where they choose to live. As a former resident of Dover, NH, just down the road from you, Irish, Live Free or Die.

[seriousfun]

Originally posted by jseal
seriousfun,

Other than self-indulgent antagonism...

Your point is...

F. Scott Fitzgerald once said, "The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in the brain at the same time and still retain the ability to function."

The truth usually lives somwhere in between...

There are very few absolutes, but our freedom of expression is one that hasn't yet been written out of the constitution.

[jseal]

Originally posted by seriousfun

The truth usually lives somwhere in between...


Between what?

[Irish]

seriousfun---My youngest daughter,was a 911 operator for the
Dover Police Dept.One of my best friends,was a Sargeant on the
force.He just got promoted to Lt.My daughter no longer works
there.She was as high monetarily as you can go.When you're in your 30s,& have two kids(one autistic),cost of living raises aren't
much to work for.
"Live Free or Die"is the motto on all NH license plates.It is probably stamped on by convicts.Something doesn't seem genuine there! Irish;)

[jseal]

Originally posted by seriousfun
... our freedom of expression is one that hasn't yet been written out of the constitution.

I'm sure you agree that the freedom of speech (Amendment I) to which I believe you refer is not absolute.

As an example, you are not free to shout "Fire" in a crowded auditorium. Nor should you be, as such behavior endangers the general welfare.

Given that such constraints exit in a civilized society, what is your point here?

[seriousfun]

Originally posted by Irish
...
"Live Free or Die"is the motto on all NH license plates.It is probably stamped on by convicts.Something doesn't seem genuine there! Irish;)

No state income tax but state licquor store! Woo Hoo!

Actually, I loved living there and found a few things to do other than drinking.

[seriousfun]

Between what?

Two opposing thoughts. In context, if we can listen to Charlie Daniels as well as Natalie Maines, we might then be able to think for ourselves.


Originally posted by jseal




I'm sure you agree that the freedom of speech (Amendment I) to which I believe you refer is not absolute.

As an example, you are not free to shout "Fire" in a crowded auditorium. Nor should you be, as such behavior endangers the general welfare.

Given that such constraints exit in a civilized society, what is your point here?



The point is that political dissent is allowed, protected, and should be cherished and defended (even fought for!).

Cheney and Rumsfeld have lied lied lied to us time and time again over the last few weeks, which to me constitutes an egregious distortion of their right to free speech, considering that they are appointed officials of our government, and that deaths, both of combatants and civilians, have resulted from their words.

[Irish]

A politician,that lies?I'm shocked!!
Seriousfun---I don't belong to any political party,but I have a memory,like an elephant,when something affects me or/& mine.
Did you live here during the last presidential election?There was a
water shortage in NH.Al Gore was campaigning in NH.At the time,
J.Shaheen(sp?)was Gov.of NH.She was the same party as Gore.
I couldn't put water in my above-ground pool for my Grandkids or
water my lawn,wash our cars,etc.When Gore posed for a political
campaign picture,he didn't think it was photogenic enough.He had
the Gov. open a dam so the water would be higher&the picture
more photogenic.As I say,I'm not in a party,but when someone puts their wants ahead of my family,my vote is decided.I'm sure
that there's pros&cons on both sides,but that affected me&mine.
Irish

[seriousfun]

I was in a band that played at Jerry Brown's defeat party (scheduled as a victory party) in Manchester.

Linda Ronstadt had been in Dover with him earlier that day but decided at the last minute to fly back to LA.

That night, Jerry had one of his campaign workers ask our lead singer if she wanted to spend the night with him (on topic for Pixies :D ). She was married, and said no, but par for the course for a politician of any stripe.

But why bring up Gore at this point :confused:

Reality, now, is that we are being played for fools by rich powerful men, and things are gonna get real bad for us until we wake up.

I, Natalie Maines, and Charlie Daniels have the right to say what we want about this.

[Irish]

Seriousfun---The reason that I brought up Gore,was to show,
that my decisions are based on the things that affect me & mine
Also I was wondering if you lived here then,thinking that you might remember the incident.
By the was,the State Liquor tax doesn't bother me.I quit alcohol,
Mar.15 was 10yrs.9 mo.,since I touched alcohol.I quit cigarettes
over 30yrs.ago.The "geographical"cure saved me money!I could
drink more for the same price.That's called Irish economics! Irish

[jseal]

Originally posted by seriousfun
...Two opposing thoughts. In context, if we can listen to Charlie Daniels as well as Natalie Maines, we might then be able to think for ourselves...

… what an interesting notion. One wonders what this conjecture hints about the thought processes of the overwhelming majority of people on the earth who are unfamiliar with the political views expressed by Mr. Daniels or Ms. Maines. Are the thoughts of these people invalid? Do these people have no thoughts on the subject, or should they wait for someone else to provide them with their thoughts?

Originally posted by seriousfun
The point is that political dissent is allowed, protected, and should be cherished and defended (even fought for!).

I must admit, I did not anticipate such wholehearted support for the goals of the coalition – to liberate the people of Iraq, from the despot who has tyrannized them for the last 24 years, and to replace the regime that has used weapons of mass destruction (chemical, poison gas)
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0830-07.htm
on its Kurdish civilian political dissidents with a political order that permits of the political diversity which you claim should be cherished and defended. It would seem that we share the belief that the political discourse we enjoy here is worth fighting for.

Originally posted by seriousfun
Cheney and Rumsfeld have lied lied lied to us time and time again over the last few weeks, which to me constitutes an egregious distortion of their right to free speech, considering that they are appointed officials of our government, and that deaths, both of combatants and civilians, have resulted from their words.

Messrs. Cheney and Rumsfeld probably view their opnions in a different light than do you, though possibly with less passion. If, as you correctly (IMO) assert, free speech should be curtailed only when absolutely necessary, then why withdraw this constitutionally protected behavior just because one of the men is the Vice President of the United States and the US Senate confirmed the other in his position as Secretary of Defense?

As to the responsibility for deaths, permit me to refer to an article by the American Federation of Scientists, "Iran-Iraq War (1980-1988)"
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/ops/war/iran-iraq.htm
"Casualty figures are highly uncertain, though estimates suggest more than one and a half million war and war-related casualties -- perhaps as many as a million people died, many more were wounded, and millions were made refugees. Iraq's victory was not without cost. The Iraqis suffered an estimated 375,000 casualties, the equivalent of 5.6 million for a population the size of the United States. Another 60,000 were taken prisoner by the Iranians. Iran's losses may have included more than 1 million people killed or maimed. The war claimed at least 300,000 Iranian lives and injured more than 500,000, out of a total population which by the war's end was nearly 60 million."

That war was initiated by Iraq under the leadership of the regime which is on its way out.

[seriousfun]

Originally posted by Irish
Seriousfun---The reason that I brought up Gore,was to show,
that my decisions are based on the things that affect me & mine
Also I was wondering if you lived here then,thinking that you might remember the incident.
By the was,the State Liquor tax doesn't bother me.I quit alcohol,
Mar.15 was 10yrs.9 mo.,since I touched alcohol.I quit cigarettes
over 30yrs.ago.The "geographical"cure saved me money!I could
drink more for the same price.That's called Irish economics! Irish

an Irish that doesn't drink!

The world is coming to an end :yellghst:

[seriousfun]

http://www.nerve.com/Regulars/ThisWeekinSex/03-28-03/0.jpg

[PeachsRsweet]

The only reason Natalie has recanted her comments about the war is because their hit single solider has slid from #1 to off the charts.

[seriousfun]

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only
unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American
public."

--Teddy Roosevelt

[seriousfun]

Originally posted by PeachsRsweet
The only reason Natalie has recanted her comments about the war is because their hit single solider has slid from #1 to off the charts.

It was more like her band's lawyers reminding her of the standard clause in their contract with Sony requiring her not to commit any acts which are to the detriment of record sales (normally smashing hotel rooms, shooting heroin in public, etc.).

As of today, Dixie Chicks' "Home" is still #1, Toby Keith "Unleashed" is #3 http://www.billboard.com/bb/charts/country.jsp

[jseal]

Originally posted by seriousfun
http://www.nerve.com/Regulars/ThisWeekinSex/03-28-03/0.jpg

Now that’s a peace movement with which it is easy to agree!

[jseal]

Originally posted by seriousfun


It was more like her band's lawyers reminding her of the standard clause in their contract with Sony requiring her not to commit any acts which are to the detriment of record sales (normally smashing hotel rooms, shooting heroin in public, etc.).



When one takes the king's shilling, one must dance to the king's tune!

[Irish]

Originally posted by seriousfun


an Irish that doesn't drink!

The world is coming to an end :yellghst:
Another stereotype!That's why they always portray a biker on
TV,with a t-shirt that comes 1/2 way down his enormous beer
gut,long stringy hair&looks like they take one bath a year,if
needed or not.An alcoholic(me!)always wears a long coat,
preferably,a dirty trenchcoat,and carries his bottle in a brown
paper bag!Believe it or not,some of us do make it!Yes,I am
very touchy about alcoholism.I didn't plan on growing up a
"drunk." Irish

[Irish]

I'd like to apologise for my smart-ass reply last night!I had just finished working-out and was WAY overtired.I overreacted to a
statement,that I'm sure was made in jest.I'm overtouchy about
alcoholism & steriotypes are my pet peeve.That isn't you guys
fault.The "old",overprotective,combative,ME,resurfaced for a minute!It bothered me everytime that I awoke during the night.
Sorry,Irish

[jseal]

Irish,

'Nuff said.

[seriousfun]

Originally posted by Irish
I'd like to apologise for my smart-ass reply last night!I had just finished working-out and was WAY overtired.I overreacted to a
statement,that I'm sure was made in jest.I'm overtouchy about
alcoholism & steriotypes are my pet peeve.That isn't you guys
fault.The "old",overprotective,combative,ME,resurfaced for a minute!It bothered me everytime that I awoke during the night.
Sorry,Irish

It was insensitive, and stereotypical, I'm sorry.

But, hell, I'm of Irish descent, too...:o