Gee Lets see How about ABC , NBC and CBS , Do you ever hear of Gov't Abuse on any of these News Programs , Like The I.R.S. Kicking in the Door of a 70 yr old man in B'Ham Al ,At 0300 All dressed up in their SWAT gear and Giving him a Major Heart Attack , Why did they do this welll it seems He had not Payed his Taxes cuz He had rather buy his Heart meds....Lot of good it did him Huh . Or the fact that the BATF kicked open the Door Of a Man Named Ironicly "Justice" Because Someone had said that He had automatic weapons in his house , BTW they found none and Oh yes He was at work and they The Gov't Thugs left the door open with all his weapons laying out and their were kids playing in the street and the yards , now tell me whom would have been responsable if those kids had gotten some of the weapons and killed some one ? You know I find it all to funny that Liberals and People from other Countrys Like to tell us How we are suppose to live , Yet don't have the "SACK" to do anything about the problems... Hey but wait G.W. hasn't bombed any asprin Factories to get the press off his Whoreing , And Lets see What About the Liberal "GOD" Clinton not signing a ban on partial birth Abortions....BTW to get back on the Subject of this Thread.... If it is against the Religious teachings Why should a Preist , Minister or the like Be forced to Break the Religious Doctron to Marry Gays ? All you Liberals need to read the Constition ya Know Religious Freedom..The Gov't can't force their Anti Religious views on ya .

It has never been suggested anywhere, that I have heard, for the government to force religious institutions to recognize any unions regardless of gender. Countless people are married without the benefit of clergy everyday. This is not about religious freedom it's about the rights of Americans to have their families and partnerships recognized.

AQUA
 

Do You Really Believe the Media Only report what the People want to Hear ? Now I would Love to "Hear" the truth about WACO , Ruby Ridge , The Bombing In Oklahoma . But They "Media" don't tell what really happened Like the Fact that if the Gov't wanted to Get Korech without trouble why didn't they just wait till he went to breakfast in town just like he did nearly every morning ? Why was the Press there at the Compound when the Gov't went in ? Hummm Did the Gov't want America see what it was doing to it's citizens? or did they want to see if they could justify the Armed invasion of it citizens Homes...BTW where were all the Liberals and ACLU types When The Branch Dividians Cival rights were being Violated "Freedom of Religion" Oh and where were all these Fully Automatic weapons They were suppose to Have ? Where were all the Liberals when Randy Weaver 's Wife was Murdered By and F.B.I. Assisan and His son shot in the back..At Ruby Ridge? I could go on but then I would be Labeled as a Gun Nut or some assine shit like that .

The America People are Sheep !! Bahh Bahh Bahh

Lillith
 

I have a Friend who Lives In Vermont He Is a priest , afew Years ago when Vt. made Gay marrage Legal I asked Him if He would Marry Gays He told me that under the Law he would have too but would not , even if it meant Him going to Jail , It is against his Church Teachings ,and He was taught that Homosexuality was and abomation in the eyes of God . So yes It is a Religious matter of Gov't telling a Religion what to do .

Priests and other clergy can refuse to marry anyone and do so. It is not legislated now and in my opinion, never will be. If a denomination decides to have their clergy marry gays as the United Methodists have battled doing, then a clergy of that group would have a problem, not with a government but with his/her own church.

I respect everyone's rights to feel exactly how they do about this issue but I can not be silent when people I care about are told that their feelings, families, and relationships are of no/ or lesser value.

It's not something we are going to come to agreement on anytime soon, not here at our beloved Pixies or in America. I respect everyone who has spoken up and responded to this thread so respectfully, regardless of the stance you have taken. Thanks!

Just So Ya'll Know
 

I really don't care what someone does in the Bed Room , I just don't want it forced on me or mine that some practices are OK . I am not the one who has to answer for what "Others" do but I am the One Responsable for the Moral teaching of My Children as to what is right and wrong , I have Gay friends while I do not condone what they do I do not Judge them , I do not allow them to Bring it to my home . Nor do I allow my other friends who drink to excess or do drugs to bring it into my home either . IMHO I think most of America feels the same way , and I think this is what all this is really about .

This country would be way better off, if we as a nation judged and discriminated people on the basis of who they hated, rather than who they love..
I still don't see the reason for not extending these rights to every citizen of the United States. I know that there are qualifications and restrictions for every right we have. This issue is no different. But why change the law to deny these rights rather than to allow these rights?
Still with all of this collective discussion no one in this thread has yet to really answer that question "does marriage need to be defended?"
If it does need to be protected against what and why?
What will happen to marriage if we let homosexuals have the right?
Will it diminish your life in any way?
Will there be a great harm brought to society?

I understand discriminating against things for the greater good… for instance I really don’t think blind people should be given the right to drive. But why not let people who love each other declare that bond?

Does that mean that people,who are BLINDLY in love,can't drive?
Irish

Please send me my beer, too, GingerV

And yes we have both sides of the issue in Canada..but we seem to be more gentle about it.

Suzy, there's a pub on every frigging corner of this town....let me know when you're coming by and I'll pay up in your choice of establishment ;). Thanks for reading.

Aqua
 

Let me clear up one Important fact in your Post You said there was a Time when Blacks could not Vote in this Country...It was not only Blacks but "ANYONE" Who did not own land , Whites included .

Tell me If not to Have Kids , Why get married in the first Place , It's only a piece of Paper . If you Love and care for someone , what does that have to do with a piece of Paper....If it's a Legal matter like Having you Partner get your money ect. when you die thats what wills are for . It has been said that Religion will not be forced to perform Marrages........In this Law suit Happy Land we all live in do you really believe that........Hell We are Having Gun Mfg, sued for some Puss nutted prick killing someone . Now Explain that , and then tell me that Some Gays who a Minister refused to Marry will not sue if for No other reason than to make news .

It was said that Insurance Co. don't want Gays to Marry . Why? What does that Have to do with the Price of Tea in China , If the Company you work for does not have insurance then find you a new Job , I can not speak for everyone but Thats one of the things I look for In a Company before I take a Job , The Benifits , Insurance , 401 , Stock Options Profit Shareing .

Re: AQUA
 

I don't quite understand how the mainstream media's lack of coverage on those issues equates to a liberal alignment. Where were the liberals on Waco? They were showing footage on public access cable that served as a rather searing indictment of the government and its authorities. I may be in my early 20s but I remember Waco. As for Randy Weaver and Ruby Ridge I have no idea, I'm not familiar with those incidents, but I'll look them up.

It's important to remember, however, that liberalism is not defined by the actions of certain organizations that are in someone's estimation, "liberal". Just because the ACLU doesn't take up a cause (or so it may appear) doesn't mean that no liberals care.

I'd have thought that if the media weren't covering governmental abuse that'd make them more conservative than liberal, no?

No, GW hasn't bombed asprin factories to get the press off of his whoring, but he did bomb 2 countries, which some might argue served to get the press off of a few percieved incompetencies. And who's calling Clinton a "god"?

Re: Just So Ya'll Know
 

No one is forced to believe that a given practice is okay just because it's legal.

Belial
 

By the Press "NOT" Talking about the Gov't abuse IS Liberal . They (Press) Never tell the Whole truth , They Only tell what the Gov't will allow....Now some will ask How the Gov't Can and does control what is put out By the Media . If a News Group starts putting too much Heat on a point , They are veiled threats of FCC pulling their License , or Audits By the IRS .
When was the Last time you Heard of someone using a Gun for good in the Press ?
It is said By the Media That Guns are the Leading cause of Death in Kids............Not true , Auto wrecks are , guns are something like 4th .

Ruby Ridge and Randy Weaver , Happened a few years back , Randy was set upon by the FBI and BATF , on a trumped up charge of selling a Illegal shot gun to a Undercover agent , (Later ruled to be entrapment)He was being forced to "SPY" on a group he used to be a member of (White Seperatest) He told the Gov't to stick it in their Ass ,So the Gov't Set their attack dogs on Him .And the FBI was given order to Go to His Home without a Warrent and were told to Shoot any male carrying a weapon , Randy's son and Brother-in-Law were out on their property when the dog that was with them caught the FBI agents and the U.S> Martials and FBI Agents Fired and Killed the Dog , And also Shot and Killed Randys son after he fired on them...Now you might say they fired in self Defence but the FBI were there Illegally. and so there was a Stand off that lasted I believe Two weeks , A FBI sniper and I use that term Loosely Fired and Killed Randy's Wife Vickey while She was Holding a Baby , He Shot Her in the Head from 100 yrds and He claimed He was shooting at Randy who was aproxmatly 20 feet to her right , I do not know How much you Know of shooting but Thats Impossable at 100 yrds you will not miss 20 feet left or right , He hit where He was Aiming .

Re: Re: Just So Ya'll Know
 

You Miss the Point , I do not believe Homosexuality is OK , and I will not allow My kids to be made to think it is , By allowing Gay marrage it is OKing a Life style that , Is wrong . I am not a Religious Person But I do Believe in the Bible , It is in Numerious Places the Homosexuality is an Abomanation to God , Ever Heard Of Sodom And Gomora .

Re: Aqua
 

That's a good question - what does love have to do with a piece of paper? Not much. And nor is it compulsory to marry even to have children, so why does anyone do it?

Could it be that, as vulnerable and insecure individuals, we crave the reassurance that the person we care most about in the world is as committed to us, as we are to them? Is it that we want to show our children, our friends and family the strength of that commitment in some kind of ritualised ceremony (religious or otherwise). Well judging by the fact that, marriage is pretty much present in every single culture of the world in some form or other, I'd make a guess that it does come from that personal need for emotional security.

So my question is, to those who are against the idea of gay marriage, why do you think gay people don't have this same need?

I'm not sure what the answer to that will be, but I can't help but feel that there are a lot of people out there in the world, who are so hung up on the actual acts of homosexual sex, that they almost forget that gay people are thinking, feeling, emotional beings who have all the same insecurities, fears, wants and needs as heterosexuals.

Re: Re: Re: Just So Ya'll Know
 

No, I got your point. Teach your kids that a) Tolerance does not amount to approval, and b) Legislation does not have to control anyone's personal views or values. Do those two things and you have no problem.

Re: Belial
 

Okay, so let's assume that the media is acting in the government's interests. Do you honestly believe the current US government is liberal?

Yikes!
If the issue is going to reduce down to Homosexuality is wrong and an threat to our society, which is what I get from the posts of HarleyRider769, should the bigger issue be where should we deport those fags to? And how do we stop them from multiplying?

I don't see how if we afford this group most all human rights and pass a law like the "Hate Crime" laws to continue to punish people more harshly for committing crimes against Homosexuals and others. Why do we draw the line at marriage?

Homosexuals are allowed to raise children, for that matter to birth children, to vote to own property jointly geeeez to do a lot of stuff, that just does not make sense in the minds of some people. Yet we as a society do afford them some rights.

As a society we have moved homosexuality away from the margins, out of the closet and more to the mainstream…and exaclty what evil has happened to us?

For whatever reason, Nature or Nurture or some combination of the both, Homosexuality is a fact of being, it always has been and I imagine it always will be. From my what I have seen Homosexuality is not a choice that you simply change.

Obviously homosexuals are someone’s children. They are the brothers and sisters of normal everyday people. Their difference is generally not a choice but an imperative. .

This is not an issue about the media, liberal or otherwise, I have worked in TV and I can tell you the reason for television is to sell more products by getting better ratings. They will do what ever they can to increase ratings period. If you are paying attention to the mainstream media you are fool with the attention span of a high functioning third grader, which is exactly the level targeted by the media pundits. Why video of fire is more important than trying to explain just what the hell Alan Greenspan is actually saying.

HarleyRider6769 - If you intend to teach your children that homosexuality is 'wrong', what will happen if one of your children turns out to be gay?

Don't you think that teaching your children this might damage them in some way if they do turn out to be homosexual?

Or do you believe that by teaching your children that homosexuality is wrong, that they somehow won't be 'at risk' of being gay? If so, I really think you need to learn more about how human sexuality works, because it's a little more complicated than that.

I teach My Children what The Bible says , Now can you tell me where it says that Homosexuality is OK in the Bible Because I can tell you where it , says that it is not . Being Gay is a Life choice , If you Believe In God and the Bible it says that It is an Abomanation In the Eyes Of God....Now why would God create something that is an Abonation to Himself ?
As I have said I am not a Religious Person , But I do Follow the Bible as Best I can .

No I do not think Me Teaching My Kids that this or any other thing is wrong will Damage them , No More than teaching them Not to Lie , steal , cheat , kill , or any other of the things that are very Plainly spelled out as wrong in the Bible .

Head + Wall = Ouch

^10

Yes That usually Happens when Liberals Meet the truth and the flaws in their thinking are pointed out . But as Scarlett Says " Oh Fiddle Dee Dee There is Always Tommorrow"

Wow.

My comment was in reference to how the entire conversation was going in circles.

Buy hey, Harley wants to take it personally and get nasty about it. That's his/her option....but it's definately my cue to leave the thread.

I'm off to perv....send any beer claims to me PM.

I understood that to be your point GingerV. That was why I raised it to the tenth.

Each side of this issue have their points to make and as long as people can discuss it respectfully it's all good. I picture it like two circles actually. Those who believe Gays should have the exact same rights as all other Americans are afforded and those who believe gay marriage is not a right. Hopefully when the two circles converge upon each other we get a Venn diagram :D with some agreement and consensus in the center. Otherwise we can talk all over eachother but no one is listening and nothing is accomplished by the dialogue.

Truth is that liberals have never met the truth and had the "flaws" of our thinking pointed out by the right wing.Our views have been totally MISREPRESENTED by the right. If you want to kow what liberals think about any given subject,ASK A LIBERAL...Not LIEmbaugh,Reagan,Bush (papa or baby) or anybody else that has an interest in telling you lies. As for the Bible,how do you interpret what is left up to so many interpretations?You only have to see what this current administration is doing throughout the world to see how far they are from the teachings of Jesus.As for gays,I have no problem with them.Many of my friends past and present are gay.Like the civil rights movement and the woman's liberation movement before them,gays only want to be reassured that they won't become a scapegoat for an ever increasing Fascist bunch of lying SOB's in the future.GOD IS NOT A REPUBLICAN...but can I say the same for the politics of the devil?

Demonizing people, any people, is not productive. It's how this whole mess got started.

Re: Re: Re: Just So Ya'll Know
 

Well I am a religious person and I ask you this...

Ever heard of Jesus?

He teaches us to love thy neighbor, but love your enemy as well. When asked what the most important commandment was He answered, "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is NO other commandment GREATER than these." There is no asterisk there with a note at the bottom of the page reading 'except for the following people...' It is all inclusive.


The things you just mentioned can directly harm another person. Homosexuality does not. There is a huge difference between murder and loving someone of the same sex. It has been my experience that many that oppose homosexuality are transfixed on the sexual act instead of what these people do with the other 99% of their lives.


Allow me to clear it up even further... Whites males, landowning or not, were all allowed to vote AND given equal access to public facilities before blacks were. In 1965 President Johnson signed the Voting Rights Act which pledged Federal enforcement of equal access to voting ballots, particularly in the south because they were not being allowed to vote even though they had that right.

I wrap up this post with a request in the interest of maintaining civil discussion in this thread. This thread is not about the things you hate about liberals, so please refrain from the off topic attacks on everything from the media to Ruby Ridge.

A queston for all of you who have read and understand the Bible.


Where does it state in the Bible that nudity is sinful???

Oh crap^^^^^^

I'm a sinner:D














but you guys knew that:p


No where that I have read Scarecrow...

No where that I have read either... But nudity can cause covetous feelings and therein lies the sin.

<~~~~covets^^^ occasionally:D

shal not lie with a man as you do a woman or some thing
like that is the line all anti gay groups use from the bible
the same set of rules say women can not wear any thing
red no pork and other things to even thou these are not only
from the old tesdiment these rules are for a diferant religion
of the jewish nation

Following strict Kosher laws,a cheese burger would be a no-no.Pork would be unthinkable and shell fish,(some of my favourite) would be an enjoyment denied.The old testament was full of laws and demands that now seem quite unimaginable.It could be that the then tribal elders embellished and that the old testament was a recorded history of their lives.Jesus recinded the strict Kosher laws for his followers leaving only the mixing of meat and blood to be denied.Funny,every culture has it's style of "blutwurst"but nobody gives a second thought to the biblical passage when eating it.For the modern day Christian to pour over the O.T. trying to find the passages to support their fears and to memorize verses as 20 second sound bites,is counter productive in my opinion.Especially when the teachings of The Christ seems to be omitted all together. Wouldn't an omnipresent God be much greater than the sum total of all our fears?

In Georgia it is legal to marry a cousin. But as far as this Goes being a church loving PK on a number of religious associations myself. and after many many arguements with my dad about it I still dont see nothing wrong with same sexz couples. And to talk about crazy Bush's own Vice Mr. Cheny (where the fuck is he anyway?) daughter is a card carrying get them the conservative gay vote in the stolen election of 2000 Lesbian. Has anyone wondered why Cheney hasnt said word one about this idiotic bull!

And to say get a will and leave it to your partner. Wills can be contested and held up in courts for years. Power of attorney can be stripped if you are comatose, So there would be ways for parents could leave your partner out if they wanted too. For whatever reason they might hace

I am off of my soap box now. Thank you and good night.

Aqua
 

Please Point Out in "ANY" of my posts where I said I Hated Gays . Yes I have Heard Of Jesus I believe He said something About Love the Person But Hate the Sin .
As to My Posts about Liberals and Ruby Ridge A Question was asked of How Liberals Media Is pushing this and I was responding to That , a Question was also asked About Pointing Out which Media groups were Liberal , I believe I did that and pointed out How they were .

Now as a Religious Person Please tell me How you can condon Homosexuality , I am not being Hostile Just wondering .